Terminus Apollo Hammers

[yobuck]

A well built custom rifle is capable of this accuracy. If they are built right, every one is capable of this accuracy. You often read here that customs dont shoot any better than a semi custom or factory rifle. Yes they do, this is why you buy a good custom rifle. Tuning one to shoot like that is up to the owner however. I do not doubt these groups for a second.

I doubt that many of us question the group. And most of us at least would totally agree with the rest of your statement.
The questions i have and no doubt others also, are about the message in the original post.
And to clarify, would it have been the same message a year ago?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I'm not really following what you're saying but don't read any more into what I posted then what I said. All I'm saying is I expect a well built hunting rifle to shoot 2 or 3" 3 shot groups at 1000 yds, when the tune is on.

 

[crazyhorse]

Lots of "experts" on this thread who admit they have never shot a group like the one posted but strangely they seem to possess the knowledge that no one else could achieve it?

100% agree with Alex that a well built custom rifle, with proper load tuning, capable shooter, and favorable conditions could routinely print similar 3 shot groups.

A great rifle is the foundation to getting in the sub .1's-2's category but proper load tuning is an absolute necessity! Sometimes you get lucky with quality factory ammo or the first few attempts with a hand load, but its a critical part of the process that often requires a lot of time and knowledge of the process.

Barbour Creek and Terminus routinely back up their claims with photo, video and satisfied customers and I enjoy learning from the videos they provide. Joel has offered several times in this thread to provide first hand proof to back the claims originally made. Id suggest if you don't believe, rather than trashing them, then take him up on the offer or take your Mosin and play elsewhere!

 

[yobuck]

I'm not really following what you're saying but don't read any more into what I posted then what I said. All I'm saying is I expect a well built hunting rifle to shoot 2 or 3" 3 shot groups at 1000 yds, when the tune is on.

Well were free to expect what ever we like.
But theres also the luck of the draw to consider, timing, conditions if you will.
Which also tends to affect how long records hold up.
And why theres more chance of them holding up longer with 10 shots than there is with 5 or 3.
For sure there are no shortages of good guns and good shooters now days, and all we need do is come to places like this to find that out.
But we might reach a different conclusion if we look at the match statistics couldnt we?
In the 50 years 1000yd benchrest matches have been taking place at Williamsport, there has only been one shooter to win the aggregate award 2 times. And that happened about 30 years ago with a home brew gun built on a lefty Savage action with a Unertle scope.
Anybody care to explain that?

 

[crazyhorse]

Well were free to expect what ever we like.
But theres also the luck of the draw to consider, timing, conditions if you will.
Which also tends to affect how long records hold up.
And why theres more chance of them holding up longer with 10 shots than there is with 5 or 3.
For sure there are no shortages of good guns and good shooters now days, and all we need do is come to places like this to find that out.
But we might reach a different conclusion if we look at the match statistics couldnt we?
In the 50 years 1000yd benchrest matches have been taking place at Williamsport, there has only been one shooter to win the aggregate award 2 times. And that happened about 30 years ago with a home brew gun built on a lefty Savage action with a Unertle scope.
Anybody care to explain that?

Alex explained most of this in an earlier response. Obviously an aggregate will always be lower than a snapshot of a rifle/shooter due to multiple variances that affect outcomes.

The original post was created by the designer and manufacturer of the action used to accomplish the phenomenal groups. Obviously he is proud of what happened and wants a large group of people who obsess over LR accuracy to see what his product is capable of doing.

The person who shot the groups has also responded by saying he has a tremendous amount of experience and training also adding conditions were very favorable when he shot the groups in the pictures. I don't think anyone believes that's what happens every time he and that gun go to the range but rather when all things come together, its an indication of what's possible.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont want to derail this thread but looks like it's too late so, what a rifle is capable of vs what it does in a match are not the same. You have conditions and the ever changing tune. Trust me, the rifles breaking agg records today are shoot sub 2" 5 shot group regularly in early morning conditions. It's not luck any more, things are that good, consistently. It's why I am always encouraging guys interested in extreme accuracy to go to a match, it's the only place you can learn to get them shooting like that.

 

[Ranger Rick]

Lots of "experts" on this thread who admit they have never shot a group like the one posted but strangely they seem to possess the knowledge that no one else could achieve it?

100% agree with Alex that a well built custom rifle, with proper load tuning, capable shooter, and favorable conditions could routinely print similar 3 shot groups.

A great rifle is the foundation to getting in the sub .1's-2's category but proper load tuning is an absolute necessity! Sometimes you get lucky with quality factory ammo or the first few attempts with a hand load, but its a critical part of the process that often requires a lot of time and knowledge of the process.

Barbour Creek and Terminus routinely back up their claims with photo, video and satisfied customers and I enjoy learning from the videos they provide. Joel has offered several times in this thread to provide first hand proof to back the claims originally made. Id suggest if you don't believe, rather than trashing them, then take him up on the offer or take your Mosin and play elsewhere!

crazy horse, instead of being judgmental, try to chill and reread Joel's posts. They were misleading, pushed a false bravado challenge (Joel finally admitted he wasn't the shooter) and were without any qualifications or back up. A big departure from your own standard (above). There wasn't anything close to hostile trashing (Even you could admit it could have been a lot worse), and there's nothing wrong with questioning something highly unusual. Be Real and allow others to express their opinions. Respect others, don't judge others or "trash" others for expressing something contrary to your opinion. Where did you ever come up with Mosin?? Please don't get angry and try, try not to reply (unless you apologize).

 

[TruePrecision82]

I dont want to derail this thread but looks like it's too late so, what a rifle is capable of vs what it does in a match are not the same. You have conditions and the ever changing tune. Trust me, the rifles breaking agg records today are shoot sub 2" 5 shot group regularly in early morning conditions. It's not luck any more, things are that good, consistently. It's why I am always encouraging guys interested in extreme accuracy to go to a match, it's the only place you can learn to get them shooting like that.

Not trying to drag this thread out anymore than it already has been but a match is not the only place to learn. Actually I would say that is the worst place to learn. I have trained a lot of guys who shoot PRS and the majority of them do some swag to their calling winds. They'll take a direction and angle of mirage going by the old standard of FM 23-10 (which is old and outdated and plain wrong) and the favor the edge from which direction the wind is coming hoping to increase their probability of hits. That or they hope the wind at their location is the same wind that will be affecting the bullet. So a lot of bad habits are developed there. But there are members of the community that know how to read wind pretty good. Never shot benchrest so I can't say with them.

 

[TruePrecision82]

I doubt that many of us question the group. And most of us at least would totally agree with the rest of your statement.
The questions i have and no doubt others also, are about the message in the original post.
And to clarify, would it have been the same message a year ago?

What do you mean would it have been the same a year ago? Enlighten me so I can understand.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

@TruePrecision82 you went to SOTIC? Thats some great shooting. Us regulars could only dream of great training like that. Thanks for posting.

@Joel Russo I dont believe that rifle did that. Better send it my way for further testing.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Not trying to drag this thread out anymore than it already has been but a match is not the only place to learn. Actually I would say that is the worst place to learn. I have trained a lot of guys who shoot PRS and the majority of them do some swag to their calling winds. They'll take a direction and angle of mirage going by the old standard of FM 23-10 (which is old and outdated and plain wrong) and the favor the edge from which direction the wind is coming hoping to increase their probability of hits. That or they hope the wind at their location is the same wind that will be affecting the bullet. So a lot of bad habits are developed there. But there are members of the community that know how to read wind pretty good. Never shot benchrest so I can't say with them.

My remarks were in regaurds to getting the rifles shooting like that. Tuning. Theres some decent info online but so much to sort through and if you dont know the good from the bad you'll chase your tail. But if you show up to BR matches (the only match where they measure group size) and get advice from the ones winning, you can take it to the bank. Wind reading is another thing and I think good instruction from an experienced shooter or a class can be very valuable, but you have to shoot long range often to maintain the skill imo. Its not like riding a bike in my experience. Good instruction can drastically shorten a guys learning curve.

 

[TruePrecision82]

My remarks were in regaurds to getting the rifles shooting like that. Tuning. Theres some decent info online but so much to sort through and if you dont know the good from the bad you'll chase your tail. But if you show up to BR matches (the only match where they measure group size) and get advice from the ones winning, you can take it to the bank. Wind reading is another thing and I think good instruction from an experienced shooter or a class can be very valuable, but you have to shoot long range often to maintain the skill imo. Its not like riding a bike in my experience. Good instruction can drastically shorten a guys learning curve.

I have been fortunate and happened to be mentored by people who knew/know what they are doing. Worked with the best, trained by the best, and where I am now I shoot 6 days a week using well over a hundred rounds each day. Where everyone falls short is they spend money on their equipment and the latest gadget that's supposed to make you a better shooter just by having it in your pocket. When what they should be doing is investing in themselves as what's between their ears is the best gadget for shooting when it's fed properly. Without beefing it up all your equipment is just really expensive paper weights.

barbourcreek.com

 

[TruePrecision82]

@TruePrecision82 you went to SOTIC? Thats some great shooting. Us regulars could only dream of great training like that. Thanks for posting.

@Joel Russo I dont believe that rifle did that. Better send it my way for further testing.

That Rifle is my rifle and no I did not go to sotic. That's James Eagleman. He was a sotic instructor.

 

[tooth doc]

Correction... it's a Proof.

May be a proof wrapped benchmark, i have one on my 7 mm wsm.