Terminal Velocity Effects

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Brent, Jan 11, 2004.

  1. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    rost495 Posted:
    Reed
    Speed Kills. Yep. Gotta have accuracy and precision placement though. And watch those lighter bullets. You might get a bullet failure by trying to run up the speed too fast. Besides the lighter bullets just don't hold out as well as the heavier ones once you reach mid range(600 yards) and beyond.


    reed mosser Posted:
    am shooting lighter bullets because they kick less. kill better, shoot flatter. The peneration of the 150 interbond is more than good enough for me. I was worried about the bullet holding up at those speeds, so I did a small test. I shot the 150 interbonds into 1.5 feet of dry newspaper I found two of them and they retained 75 percent of their weight. The third went through. When I shot my deer with the 30 laupa we compared the exit holes to 338-378 mags with 300 grain sierra's. The big 33's with 300's just make fist sized holes. One shot with 33-378 ran 120 yards with a good shot. The match bullets just don't open up enough. i also shot 7 wsm with 180 bergers and have terrible results hunting with the bergers. With deer they just bore holes through them, with most requiring a second shot. I believe that from 0-800 yards speed kills. Reed


    This is interesting, I tend to shoot the same bullet at LR and SR both, and like to see them perform well at either. I wonder if trimming the meplat back to a certain diameter, not really large, but enough to help initiate expansion better and not lower the BC terribly would actually make a huge difference? My thinking is, if it helps up close, it should help out far?

    Steel plates -
    Close range just bores holes through them, pick your match bullet, it don't matter which one, that I've seen anyway, they all burn holes right through, faster the better.

    Game -
    Terminal velocity is all that matters, range is really irrelivant. Ian and Dave alone have killed, well, litterally tons of game with the mighty 308, and probably have a great idea of what we can expact with the hyper velocity cartridges many of us here use for waaaaaay out there.

    I've shot a bunch of game with the 308 win too, moose mainly, and I have found the big and heavy expanding bullets with the 416 WBY and the heavy for caliber bullets from the 300 Ultra Mag to really upset the critters mindset almost instantly vs. quickly. There is a difference in reaction often, but I've never seem a moose react any different after being shot by a 308 than a 300 WM, I can't tell the difference.
    Hit 'em with faster speeds of the WBY or Ultra and there's kind of a turning point in their reaction, their attention has just been gotten a little more than the usual. I'm talking 100-200yds is all. The 416 is just a monster none of them have much time at all to think about, lights out!

    The one thing that changes when killing an animal way out there is the loud factor in his ear at the same moment he feels the bullet tearing through him... The connection is instantly made he's in trouble, not something else far away going on he has a chance to hide from.

    The animal's feeling of INSTANT danger verses POSSIBLE danger because of hearing the shot is obviously a factor, and honestly they die with a different awareness?? that more casual. I don't think it takes near the terminal velocity at LR that really does help at short range to kill with the same effect. JMO

    Anyone else agree, disagree, close but not quite? [​IMG]
     
  2. Aussie Powder Burner

    Aussie Powder Burner Well-Known Member

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    I think some of the original thread was really searching for the holy grail projectile that gives instant kills on game regardless of range [0-800]. We all know that with hunting style projectiles as velocity falls so does expansion [ie the further out the impact the less the expansion and the greater the penetration often].
    Quality hunting projectiles working within a suitable speed/calibre range will always kill better than a match style projectile even at an identical weight.
    The match projectiles are primarily designed for accuracy and thus jacket integrity and consistency is the goal.
    Section some projectiles to see what I mean. Compare match and hunting jacket thickness and construction.
    I once used 300SMK in .375H&H which were bloody terrible on game compared to 300 Hornady SN.
    This brings up another initial point of what game we are hunting and matching the pills.
    Whatever cartidge / game combo you can always exceed the velocity projectile envelope.
    With the same rifle I have seen projectiles fail to exit the shoulder of a wildebeest at 60yds - this is a slight animal only about 15" across at impact point! Probably a joint effort of excessive velocity and poor jacket integrity. they simply blew to bits. Well thats my 2 bits!
     
  3. Michael Eichele

    Michael Eichele Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if I understand what we are trying to disscuss here, but my thinking on the matter is use components for the task at hand.

    If you want to kill moose at 200 yards and no further, the natives up here do it 243's and 308's A 30-06 is a BIG rifle to them.

    If you want to kill moose at 500 yards, its time to go bigger, whether you use match bullets or "X" bullets.

    If your hunting high mountain sheep at 800 yards, its time to use the most accurate load at hand, probably a 6mm IMP or a 308 or I even know of a ram killed at 960 yards w/a 6.5-284 with MK's It doesent matter what bullet, just as long as its accurate. Sheep are thin skinned light boned animals with the desire to lay down after ypu hit em.

    If one were going to limit his shots to 300 yards or less, there would be no need to use match bullets on anything. When we step up the distance, then we need to plan accordingly.

    One theory of mine is to use a frangible bullet on deer sized critters out to 800 yards fired from the 308. You dont need rock solid bullets for deer, antelope or sheep and if I can get something to expand that far, I would greatly increase my odds for succes. I dont need an exit hole. The same combo would not serve the same purpose on elk or moose at 800 yards. Now we need a 300 with 190's minimum. Trust me, on those heavy dense animals, it will expand a match bullet on impact and most likley exit even at 800 yards.

    This is what a low velocity frangible bullet does to game. The bedded sheep pictured here didnt move after he was shot, its not a blood trail, its the bullets path. You can see one arrow in the pic that shows my position, the other arrow shows the path of the bullet.

    [​IMG]

    [ 01-11-2004: Message edited by: meichele ]
     
  4. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    "My" only purpose for the thread, initially, was so I could read your thoughts and experiences with various bullets at various terminal velocity. [​IMG]


    I would like to be able to assoicate a specific bullet in your experiences with them, with the terminal velocity, and it's also its effects on the animal (read wound and reaction to being struck at that range), whether it be you figuring out what the terminal velocity would have been on the shot or you post the range and MV so I can figure it out.

    I would just like to get a deeper look into this and learn from you guys things I may not have yet learned in this respect.

    Of course, anything along these lines, and conclusions you have drawn, as you guys have posted I would love reading about also. [​IMG]


    Here's a few of mine -

    Moose 2yr old-
    640yd
    416wby
    400gr A-Frame
    2650 fps MV
    1330 fps TV

    Moose dropped instantly. Broke front shoulder exited off side, 1-2" hole.
    Lungs tore up, lost about 5-10 lbs of meat maybe from wind blowing the shot into the shoulder.

    .....

    Very big moose, 59", old bull -
    Same gun, same load.
    240yds approx..
    2070 fps TV
    .770" dia average, recovered bullet.

    Bull dropped instantly, never twitched.
    Bullet stopped under the hide, very large wound channel across back and one side. Lost probably 5 lbs of meat is all thou.
    Bull was quartered toward me a bit and I was above him 150 ft or so on a hill.
    Bullet entered just over the shoulder, missed everything vital, traveled just over the spine and through the offside scapula.

    My son had just tagged him in the lungs with his 308, but he jumped and ran about 75' and I dumped him when he turned to look back. Brad could no longer see him from his position on the ground with the bipod, as the bull moved between some trees and him and he couldn't make the offhand shot, he was 11yrs old and not too steady yet.

    I'm not sure what killed him first, shock to spine and central nervous system, or the lung shot caught up to him about then, or both. He dropped like lightning struck him tho. 308 bullet never recovered, typical lung shot with half of them pulverized on top, bullet never left chest cavity. 165gr SGK SPBT at 2650 fps quartering away shot entered mid ribcage at 200yds, 2250 fps TV.

    .....

    3yr old Moose -
    Same 416WBy
    30 foot shot
    400gr XLC
    2600 fps MV

    Hit the bull right behind the ear in spine. He dropped instantly.
    Lost no meat to speak of, as planned. [​IMG]
    2" exit hole.

    .....

    5' Black Bear -
    Same 416, same XLC load
    10' shot

    Bears (twins I think) came running down the mountain to my tent just after I cleaned dishes from lunch, and I heard them comming fast. I thought it was a Moose getting chased off the mountain.
    I spotted the black fur ball at about 30yrds, then I glimpsed the other bear 20 feet away from him behind a bush, he was comming around to my left, the other through the brush straight at me with the tent in between us. I had the crosshairs on the one in front of me, just as I saw the one bear come out 10 feet away at my left, the other poked his head out of the brush at the tent in my sight, I put a bullet in his chest and chambered another. The other bear turned and bolted like lightning up the mountain, 200ft away in 3-4 seconds tops! The bear I shot just dropped lifeless!
    Bullet went in the chest and out the gut and into the ground, never did find the bullet. Ahhhh.... the bear was tore up internally pretty bad, 1-2" exit and a stinkin mess!

    .....


    The 416Wby kills hard and fast, at least out to the ranges I've used it at.
    Bullet expansion with the 400gr A-Frame was obviously less at 640yds, as it passed through more bone, and at least as much tissue as the 200yd shot did, but exited after doing so. Probably not too surprising...


    I'll wright some more kills up and post again later.

    Michael - Shane -
    Will you give the details of the kills there too? And if you have more.... [​IMG]

    You guys start typin some out too. [​IMG]

    [ 01-12-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]
     
  5. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Brent sounds like your 416 is a killing machine. I only use the lighter bullets in my gun because usually the deer I shoot are 10 to 600 hundred yards. So far I have only shot two deer with this gun. I did test the bullets ability to kill close at high speeds. I shot a very nice eight point in the Pa season this year at about 10 to 15 yards. I was on a rock ledge a shot a angled shot from above the sholder blade to the lower part of the opossing sholder. The wound on this deer was not as dramitic as the deer I shot at 200 yards. But it still left a nice exit wound and gelled the heart + lungs. The deer I shot at 200 yrds took out a basket ball sized hole. All I can figure Is that I pushed a rib through . I so far am happy with the fast bullets. 90 percent of my deer are taken under 600 yards. next year I will be going elk hunting with this combination hope it works half as well on elk as deer. As far as accuracy goes the 30 laupa is shooting better than I expected. Thanks for you input I am fairly new to long range hunting, and could use some advice. [​IMG]
     
  6. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Reed,
    I was reading an post of mine that Len brought up, (Ric has a great read there) one were I killed this bull at 50ft with the XLC, and I noticed the speed on that load back then was 2550 fps, not 2700. (Ric has another good read about a Grizzly too, maybe Len'll dig that up too [​IMG]

    2700 is a max load and it was reduced for best accuracy but runs about 2600 on average. I run the 400gr Swift handload at 2700 with about 112gr RL22, takes about 118gr with the XLC though. Factory Swift loads were 2650, but $$$$$$!!! [​IMG]

    If you ever use that 400gr XLC, don't get no grand illusion about it having a .545 BC like Barnes says, it's about .390-.410 at best!! I've checked it on the Oehler 43 using the acustic target three different times and it's always the same... [​IMG]

    It's a thumper round, but I wish the bullets DID HAVE a .546 BC. A very generous friend of mine sent me some GS Custom 330gr HV bullets from South Africa. They say they have a BC of .550 or something high like that. I hope so, I could push this bullet to..... REAL FAST! [​IMG] The multiple driving bands on the GS are suppose to increase MV also. They're raised, not just grooves cut into the bullet, so they should work good to reduce friction a hell of a lot.
     
  7. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    I would have to say the 330 grain bullets in your 416 would perform even better on game than the 400's. You have the same B.C and more speed. I would think that 330 grain is more than enough to kill any north american big game. How fast can you push the 330 grain in your 416. I know that with that bullet diameter, weight,speed, and B.C that that should be able to kill any North american game real dead out 800 yards or so. Sounds like a winning combination for Alaskin game. How much impact do you think the diameter of the bullet plays on game.. For example a 30 cal 180 grain verse a 338 180 at the same velicoty. I know the bigger bullet should kill better. What have you noticed when taking big game in you own experiences.
     
  8. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    I found the paper that came with the GS bullets, they say they have a .540 BC. That's about .140 "higher" than the 400gr XLC and I should get 2950 fps out of it. I'm getting 2860 (68-69k psi) out of the 350 X bullet, been a while since I shot it but I had bought 2 boxes and was fixin to switch because of the low BC on the 400 XLC. Believe it or not, the 350 X bullet had a BC of .440 on the same day (only 1 test) I checked the 400 XLC at a .410 BC!!

    If these GS bullets with less bearing surface by far, get a higher MV AND BC, this thing will be a better gun than I figured even before I bought it!! You have to figure, I was counting on 2600 fps and a BC of .545, so... 2950 and a BC of .540 would be waaaay too cool!!

    The 330gr should have zero difficulty with anything in north america, and then some... Probably better than the 400, especially at LR.

    Have you ever seen a pic of the GS bullet?

    The 338WM seems to work almost like the fast 30's at 450yds. Beyond that I can't compare them yet. If I was hunting Brown Bear at 400 yards, which would only be in ideal conditions, if ever, I would rather use a 338 WM than my 300 Ultra. Even if I shot 180's, but I would go heavier than 180 if I had my choice.

    I don't care what speed you shoot the bullet at, within reason, bullet diameter DOES have a significant effect on an animals reaction on Moose and Bear.

    There's "quite" a bit more difference between the 338 and the 416 than there is the 30 and the 338. The same can be said for the 338 vs the 375 at almost identical energies, the nod goes to the 375 for effect, but the 338 producing the same muzzle energy shoots quite a bit flatter, so...

    Other game, which I don't hunt up here, many guys say it's exactly the opposite, diameter don't mean squat and speed means lightning fast kills.

    One interesting thing I recently learned, and had never really thought to ask, is that in general, Sheep and Mountain Goat die pretty easily. I'm still not sure how to quantify that, but it don't sound like they are real tough SOB's.

    I'm interested in seeing what these 330gr 416's do, they'll get loaded up here shortly. Almost loaded them and took with us when we tested the 500 but my scope is off and I didn't have time.
     
  9. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Brent your right about the bullet diameter killing better. I think for my next barrel to make 338-416 rigbyimproved to shoot the 200 and 225 noslers. i figure with that combination i would speed,flat trajactory, and some knock down power. I have a 30 alumnium tensioned barrel on my 30 laupa that works very well. I have noticed with the alumnium tensioned barrel stays much cooler that my regular heavy barrels. I am going to use a alumnium tension barrel on a 338. I figure the cooler the barrels stays, the longer it will last. How long of a barrel do I need. Have you ever used tensioned barrels. How long of a barrel can you have before needing a bedding block. I never saw a picture the 330 GS bullet. It should be a real screamer in that 416. Thanks Reed

    [ 01-13-2004: Message edited by: reed mosser ]
     
  10. a.JR

    a.JR Well-Known Member

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    Brent,I have very little experiance in bullet performance on animals as the only one's i have shot in the last 10 years have been rogue wild dogs and as such are not hard to get rid of if you can find them...Are you asking about the accuracy performance of a Meplat uniformed projectile or the effect a modified bullet on it's expansion??...I am currently doing accuracy tests on 4 lots of bullets,#1 187 BIB unmodified but classified to the Best of the Best,#2Meplat trimmed to 1.325 aol,#3 Melpat trimmed to 1.325 with the point dia cut to 55 thou dia,#4 Meplat trimmed to 1.325 with the point Re pointed to 40 thou dia..The tests are at 1K in my H/gun and will soon know which way to go for the '04 season..I can keep you posted as to the outcome with accuracy in mind but have no way of getting the info on game or pests..JR..Jeff Rogers
     
  11. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Reed,
    I've seen a tensioned barrel one time, got a picture of it. Haven't heard anything about them though.

    I doubt you'd need a barrel block on a tensioned barrel, the outer aluminum is removing a lot of stress on the receiver anyway isn't it?

    Barrel length -
    That cartridge would do well with a long barrel, depends ond what you want to do with it though. If you still want it fairly light, you might be wanting to sacifice some to keep it more portable, or is the tensioned barrel being used on yours for accuracy alone?

    Here's a pic of the 330gr HV GS Custom. I wondered why the high BC rating, hadn't dawned on me the GS bullet's a boattail. Guess I been shootin boattails so long I never paid any attention it was different than the Barnes X, exsplains a lot!!


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Jeff,
    Have you ever used the GS Customs down there?

    Anything I can learn about that meplat stuff is great, I'm all ears when you get the accuracy results.

    It would be interesting to see how the various bullets perform on game with modified meplats, probably easiest to test expansion differences in water though, takes out the variables.

    [ 01-14-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]
     
  12. a.JR

    a.JR Well-Known Member

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    Brent,As soon as i have proof of what works and what doesn't i will let you know....After 9.11 it has been very hard to get any bullets to AUST, so i'm going to make my own for a special 12 twist 7mm 1K set up..No i have not seen the bullet in the pic nor do i know anyone useing them...If you need info on "barrel Stretchers"(tensioned) ask away as i employ this principal on my current Heavy Gun... I did a lot of research and testing with conventional rifles before ending up with the present set up...One thing i can guarantee is if the stretcher comes loose as it did during the 1st shot string fired from the new gun the group changes dramatically(email me and i'll send a photo of that group)..JR..Jeff Rogers
     
  13. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Brent I will psot some pics asap. The reason I tensioned the barrel with alumnium was to make the barrel lighter and still shoot like a heavy barrel.My 30 laupa with 30 inch tensioned barrel weighs only 10 pounds with a barrel over 1 inch in diameter. I don't think the tensioned barrels shoot much better, but they do cool faster, especially with alumnium. I had a heavy stainless tensioned barrrel and it shot good but did not cool down nearly as fast as alumnium. I think the alumnium is a better material than the steel for that reason. I love big barrlels without all that weight for hunting rigs and it gives me that. The 330 gr GS bullet is pretty streamlined for a 416. Thanks Reed [​IMG] [​IMG]