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Terminal Performance? - Hornady's New ELD Match vs. Old A-Max

nightowl

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Joined
Sep 20, 2010
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Location
Central & Eastern PA
Gents (particularly the varmint through medium game hunter types),

Anybody have any experience yet with the new ELD **MATCH** bullets (*not the ELD X) in terms of terminal performance?

They are still very new (many are just released), especially in the smaller calibers (below 6.5mm) - so there's probably a low probability that anybody has had a chance to try them yet, and we'll probably all have to wait until Spring to see how they perform on the woodchucks, rock chucks, and prairie dogs. BUT, there might be some coyote or late season deer hunters out there that can help us out in the meantime.


**Stop reading here unless you: need something to read while you drink your very large cup of fresh coffee that you just poured for yourself, need something to help you fall asleep, are a glutton for punishment, or are incensed at the idea of somebody actually using a 'Match' bullet for hunting live game. If you're one of these, then read on....but remember, I warned you.

For the guys who are getting ready to jump all over me and point out that the A-Max was conceived and designed by Hornady to strictly be a match bullet meant for punching holes in paper: YES, I do realize that fact, but if you think like that you just told me one of two things:
A - you don't actually hunt varmints up through medium sized game at extended ranges
or
B- you do, but sadly, you've been missing out on one of the best long range killing bullets that there has ever been. Period.

(and notice I said 'LONG RANGE' - the A-Max is a relatively fragile bullet (perfect for soft stuff like varmints) that can, sometimes, produce less than optimal results on bigger, tougher game (heck, even medium sized game if you try to shoot through the shoulder) especially at the closer ranges at the higher velocities - this is where the awesome new ELD - X line will probably solve that issue quite well). Hence Hornady doesn't officially recommend their 'Match' bullets for hunting. The problem is, I think they themselves, may not even realize just how good their A-Max's are (unfortunately were) for the above stated purpose of hunting varmints up to medium sized game at longer ranges, and they may have 'fixed' the ELD-Match into being a better, match bullet that you should only use on paper now. But the fact is at this time I DON'T KNOW. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong and not to worry about it. Please tell me Hornady tested their new ELD Match bullets on game like coyotes and groundhogs to see how they actually worked. But I tend to doubt that happened since they have probably been spending all their time when not eating or sleeping, slaving next to that $100,000 plus doppler unit only to benefit us, their loyal customers. Not to mention either, that they don't officially recommend their A-Max line for hunting. That's what the V-Max line is for, after all, right? But what about when the wind blows? Show me a .22 cal V-Max that has a b.c. that's anywhere even near the .22 cal 75 and 80 grain A-Max? And they kill SO well. Same goes for 6mm with their 105 A-Max. The 87 V-Max is pretty respectable, but I hunted groundhogs for three days with an identical pair of twin 1:9 twist .240 Wby's, side by side, one with the 87 and the other the 105 - both loaded up to max speed. The general consensus after 3 days was that the 105 A-Max (match bullet) was better, especially at extended ranges. With the 105 I even shot a crow (relatively soft target offering little bullet resistance) at 410 yards that sent half spinning violently to the left and the other half violently to the right, the sound of which, when it finally reached us sounded a lot like somebody wildly tearing their shirt in half.

I'll admit that I'm an A-Max 'fan-boy' through and through, and that it, in its various forms over the years (the old aluminum tips from around 1995 were even better yet-still a mystery to this day why they were discontinued, except for the big .50 cal anyway) is my all-time favorite bullet, so when I saw that Hornady had discovered that the tips (polycarbonate I think) were melting and allowing the b.c.'s to degrade at extended ranges, and that they were making changes to fix that problem, I was impressed.
But if this was indeed the case, I can say that in the past experience, it sure didn't seem to hurt the accuracy, even at extended ranges. Also, I had this nagging feeling that with this new tip that doesn't melt (and I would assume, soften up before impact) they might be 'toughening up' the bullet too much and possibly ruining my beloved, favorite hunting bullet. Only time would tell. For a time it looked like they were only doing that in the larger calibers, 6.5mm and up where they were also offering a totally new design specifically created for hunting - the ELD-X. So, everybody should still at least be able to enjoy the incredible performance in their long range varmint and deer rigs, performance that's hard to beat, especially at a very reasonable price $. So now I open up the new 2017 Hornady product catalog and see that the only A-Max's left are the .30 cal 155 and 168's (and the .50 cal 750gr - don't change that one either - it's absolutely perfect). Oh boy.

So let's get some terminal performance reports. One of the earliest ELD Match (new and improved A-Max) bullets to roll out was the big .338 cal 285 grainer. I read a customer review at one of the big online vendors (this last Summer 2016) that compared its performance to the original 285gr A-Max that he had been using previously in his .338 Lapua. He said basically (I'm paraphrasing and remembering) that it was wonderfully accurate (just like the original A-Max with the now apparently 'unacceptable substandard' tips) but when he shot at plastic gallon water jugs at 850 yards, instead of exploding like they used to, the new ELD's just made a tiny little hole though the jug (this is much like what I would expect to see from a relatively tough, full metal jacketed bullet- one I would not want to use on an animal where I wasn't hunting strictly for pelts to minimize damage from exit wounds). Uh-oh. I realize this is only one example of terminal performance for the new bullets, and a fairly artificial one at that - so if I specifically want to explode plastic gallon water jugs at 850, I might want to try a different bullet. BUT this is an actual example of terminal performance, nonetheless, and it's one I've used in the past, AND it's probably a lot closer to being a reliable indicator of what might happen to one of those bullets if you put it through a big animal in say a double lung or liver shot. It sure didn't do anything to help alleviate that nagging worry I have.

Hopefully (PLEASE tell me) I'm wrong and the new ELD Match bullets prove to be just as explosive as the beloved A-Max's were, and this is NOT just like when they screwed up our Coca-Cola back in the 80's (anybody remember that one?).

Of all the the guys that I know who absolutely love the performance of the A-Max on game shot from their hot rod long range varmint and deer rifles, I'd imagine that the A-Max's had to be a pretty popular seller for Hornady, but I honestly don't know without calling and asking their marketing folks. However, to consider the old A-Max as strictly a paper-puncher is a big mistake, in my (biased and somewhat limited) opinion. Maybe with the new ELD tips, that will all change, but I don't know anybody who stuck with the A-Max for competition. What I'm saying is that I can't imagine that they were selling a lot them to the 'Match' aka target shooting customer base and that I would guess a high percentage of what they did sell went to the hunters like me, the people using the fast-twist hot rods. From the serious target shooters that I personally know, many people tried them for competition, but as I just said none stayed with them. Admittedly I'm not too familiar with the across the course or service rifle scene, so it might be a different story there, especially with the folks using the AR platforms, but as far as the 1,000 yd bench rest crowd goes, I personally know a lot of 1,000 yd bench rest competitors, many of whom have set world records in the past, and none of them are actually using the A-Max's for their original purpose intended by Hornady. The ones that do use the A-Max's, hunt with them and consider them legendary as much as I do. The only guy who I can think of that repeatedly used the A-Max in competition (if memory serves) was Hornady's tech rep Lonnie Hummel who shot the 80 grainer in his 22-6mm in 1,000 yard competitions. I think they shot pretty well, but I don't think he was setting records with them.

Just so no one gets the wrong idea - I absolutely LOVE Hornady - Dave Emary and the crew are doing a lot of cutting edge research right now for the shooting community (and very openly sharing it with everybody, I might add - very admirable, thank you for that too) - they made my favorite bullets and offered them at prices that I wouldn't have to be sleeping on the couch for buying - but my only possible criticism is that maybe, just maybe they might be missing the boat with this whole scrapping of almost the entire A-Max line in favor of the tougher-tipped ELD Match line. If they start making ELD-X bullets designed to reliably blow up ground hogs or coyotes in .22 cal and 6mm with b.c.'s at least equal to their old A-Max counterparts, I'll be buying them for sure. I might be wrong, and I sure hope I am, but till then get out there and shoot some stuff and let us all know how the new Match bullets work.

(sorry, I got a little carried away, but I had a lot of coffee too).
 
We killed a few jack rabbits with the new 147 ELD's out of our 6.5s this past weekend. All shots were close range but they blew the rabbits to pieces better than the 130 Berger Hybrids I was shooting as a comparison. I hope to have a friend use my rifle to shoot an elk this coming weekend with a 147 and see how they perform.

Here's a picture of a jack I hit at about 30 yards:
147 Rabbit.jpg
 
We have shot a deer and two ground hogs with the 140gr ELD Match from a 6.5-284 at 3025fps. Deer was shot in the ribs at around 150yds and it ran 20-30 yards and fell over. Exit hole was a little smaller than a baseball. Ground hogs were shot at 200-250 yards and the results were golf ball size exits. Not as large as the deer exit but my guess is the bullet didn't have time to fully fragment and expand in the smaller animal. In my opinion the A-MAX and ELD-Match bullets are the best bullets for mid to long range hunting. We have not shot much with the ELD bullets but we have dropped dozens of game with the old A-MAXs.
 
The A-max used to be my old stand by. Shot lots of deer and a 312 lb black bear with them and they are great. I have not yet tried the eld-match on game yet but they are very accurate. Hoping to test them on some coyotes soon.
 
I've shot some deer, yotes and porcupines with the ELD M & X both. I like them better than a Berger or SMK and that's saying something from me. I haven't shot a critter with a HUNTING bullet in 30+ yrs. As long as they expand I am good to go.
A 300gr SMK isn't recommended for hunting lol. I bet the guys saying that don't wanna get hit with one.:)
I couldn't tell any difference really between the 2. Both were shot from a 6.5 Creed about 2800. Impact velocity from 2600 to 1400 ML. Even the 1400 shot showed some expansion. The 2600 impact was beautiful and really hammered deer. The 1400 impact was on porcupine and they aren't built real heavy and yet id did begin to expand with a tennis ball size exit. Of course the same critter with a 300 SMK will literally explode so take that with a grain of salt.

I think the ELD of both types are great bullets and not a lot different from the old AMAX no matter what the marketing says. I would load them up and go. And yes I loved the Amax also up to the size of the 750gr BMG.

Hunting vs match bullets is a joke to me. Stick a match bullet in a critters heart.....and.....it dies. Dies spectacularly if it doesn't pencil. I am a Berger and SMK lover and still have 8 of the big boxes of the 338 300gr. However once they are gone I will probably replace with ELD and I am buying ELD to replace all of my Bergers as soon as I shoot them up as they are nearly 50% cheaper and easier to tune for me. Also I trust the tipped stuff not to pencil a little better and these are definitely showing that to be true SO FAR. Time will tell.

In total I killed 14 critters with the ELDs. All in 6.5 140s and 143s. Looking at the 147 for a bigger 6.5.
 
This was from another post on the extreme range part of the form. It seems the matches work pretty good as well as the ELD-X. I asked to make sure these were in fact the match bullets and he did confirm they were. So it sounds like the match bullets are good to go as well. It's really nice some hunter used these this year so we have some good info to share.



"This past season I observed family along with my friends using my rifles testing ELD match bullets on game.

2 Elk and 1 deer taken with 285 grain ELD match launched out of a 338 RUM at 2825 FPS. Bullet proves to be very explosive with minimal penetration. (didn't expect it too)

1st elk-350 yards, heart shot, bullet found on offside hide weighed 140 grains.
2nd elk-20 yards, neck shot, pass through, 1 inch entrance 5 inch exit.
Deer-764 yards, high shoulder/spine had 3 inch exit, almost severing the entire spinal column.

2 elk and 1 deer taken with 140 ELD match launched out of a 6.5 creedmoor at 2725 FPS.
1st elk-250 yards, shot was too far back in the gut, full pass through with 2 inch exit. (new shooter, too excited)
2nd elk-212 yards, high shoulder shot, jacket separation with lead core exiting out the other high shoulder blade on the off side.
Deer-354 yards, perfect behind the crease of the shoulder, 1 inch entrance (hit rib) complete jacket separation along with fragmentation-lead core exited.

After a full year of family and friends taking game with the ELD match, I have found these to work exceptionally well when placed right. One should note these are very explosive, while I do not think one should hit heavy bone with these, they have continually shown they can penetrate adequately enough to reach the vitals when kept under 2700 FPS. the fragmentation of the bullets show extensive wounding to the lungs making for quick clean kills when placed right.

I put them right into the same category for terminal ballistics of the berger hunting VLD."
 
This was from another post on the extreme range part of the form. It seems the matches work pretty good as well as the ELD-X. I asked to make sure these were in fact the match bullets and he did confirm they were. So it sounds like the match bullets are good to go as well. It's really nice some hunter used these this year so we have some good info to share.



"This past season I observed family along with my friends using my rifles testing ELD match bullets on game.

2 Elk and 1 deer taken with 285 grain ELD match launched out of a 338 RUM at 2825 FPS. Bullet proves to be very explosive with minimal penetration. (didn't expect it too)

1st elk-350 yards, heart shot, bullet found on offside hide weighed 140 grains.
2nd elk-20 yards, neck shot, pass through, 1 inch entrance 5 inch exit.
Deer-764 yards, high shoulder/spine had 3 inch exit, almost severing the entire spinal column.

2 elk and 1 deer taken with 140 ELD match launched out of a 6.5 creedmoor at 2725 FPS.
1st elk-250 yards, shot was too far back in the gut, full pass through with 2 inch exit. (new shooter, too excited)
2nd elk-212 yards, high shoulder shot, jacket separation with lead core exiting out the other high shoulder blade on the off side.
Deer-354 yards, perfect behind the crease of the shoulder, 1 inch entrance (hit rib) complete jacket separation along with fragmentation-lead core exited.

After a full year of family and friends taking game with the ELD match, I have found these to work exceptionally well when placed right. One should note these are very explosive, while I do not think one should hit heavy bone with these, they have continually shown they can penetrate adequately enough to reach the vitals when kept under 2700 FPS. the fragmentation of the bullets show extensive wounding to the lungs making for quick clean kills when placed right.

I put them right into the same category for terminal ballistics of the berger hunting VLD."

These will be my next 338 slug after I burn thru my supply of 300 SMKs. 15 gr less weight, good BC and TIPPED. Yeah I want them to EXPLODE, gonna be a fun 338 bullet for sure.
 
In my 7th edition Hornady manual in the bullet description section they do list all but one of the A-Max bullets as for use on Target, Varmint and Medium game. The only A-Max bullet that is listed as a target bullet ONLY is the 50 Cal. 750 gr. I think that it should work OK on a white tail deer starting out around 2800 fps from a 50 BMG fire arm don't you. :D
 
In my 7th edition Hornady manual in the bullet description section they do list all but one of the A-Max bullets as for use on Target, Varmint and Medium game. The only A-Max bullet that is listed as a target bullet ONLY is the 50 Cal. 750 gr. I think that it should work OK on a white tail deer starting out around 2800 fps from a 50 BMG fire arm don't you. :D
Kinda funny but the deer I shot with the 750 AMAX wasn't nearly as torn up as a 338 300SMK does. Also I temporarily blinded myself with 14lbs of grit off of a recently drilled wheat field. Cured my desire to run the 50BMG in one shot.:)
 
I see this issue on Amax and ELD match bullets was talked about in January but thought I would add my two cents, Rt2506 is right on when he says Amax bullets was listed as hunting bullets. I think they may have changed the classification to sell the newer bullet styles , anyways I have never used the match ELD bullets but have tried the new ELD-X only as far as for accuracy. They are not as accurate as the Amax out of my rifles, these are the 178 & 168 gr. bullets. I have killed eight deer with the 178 gr. 30 cal. bullet out of a 30-06 and a 308 Norma mag.. I will say the Amax kills them fast they have all dropped in their tracks or within 30 or 40 yards from where they stood when shot. I will say that if you hit a leg going in at close range you get a lot more blood shot meat than what you do by entering behind the shoulder. The two deer shot with the 308 Norma was over 500 yards with little blood shot meat. I think that the Amax bullets are excellent long range bullets for deer , the speed of the bullet has slowed down resulting in less blood shot meat but still has plenty of killing power and they are very accurate as far as I have shot with my 308 Norma mag. (1550) yards. Good Luck Hunting & Be Safe
 
I used 285g ELD M's exclusively last year with very good results. Used them on 3 Whitetail, 1 Antelope and 1 Elk. Every game animal shot with these moved very fast vertically!

Plan on using the this year as well, we drew everything we applied for in 3 states.

Ray
 
I have always liked the old A-max as a favorite long range hunting bullet in my 6.5's. I, and friends that use my rifles, have killed deer, elk, and black bear with very good results. They will expand down around 1300' per second, which is farther than I can probably hit anything! I have also had better performance than you would think, even at close range. You do get a lot of early tissue damage but the remnants of the bullet usually find a way to the opposite side and do a LOT of damage along the way! I have done a lot of bullet testing over the years to compare to my own home brews and the A-Max is one of my favorites. Now for the ELDM and X. I have been testing both in my 6.5's and both have given me superior accuracy! They both expand reliably in media at low velocity and I personally believe that the ELDM is nothing more, or less, than a High b.c. A-max. The main differences between the M and the X are the X has a hollow cavity below the tip to initiate expansion and a VERY insignificant crimp that is supposed to lock the jacket (I am skeptical that is has much affect). Personally, I have found that lead clear to the tip (like the ELDM) is better than the hollow cavity because it is not quite as explosive immediately and tends to mushroom a little more than blow! I tested this in my own bullets extensively. Since the ELDM will expand down to 1300', why do we need a hollow cavity? I believe that the M may well be a better bullet than the X! I will be shooting the 147's this fall and hope to add some real world data, but that is my 2 cents.....Rich
 
I haven't tried any of the ELDM but again I shoot 30 calibers. Even then some guns like a certain bullet over another just like some people like steaks rare others like the well done. My guns shoot the Amax well so its not broken so I don't need to fix it. Glad to hear you guys have found a honey load for your guns. Good luck hunting and be safe.
 
I agree with Rich, the eld-m is probably a better bullet for long range shooters. I know the dimensions are better than the early eld-x lots. My only animal with a eld-x was a 420 yard shot on a bull, last year. Velocity at barrel was 3100 fps. Took out both lungs completely, but he got a second, in the neck, when he started walking. Could never find a big enough piece of bullet to tell much, except they were very explosive. I love my hoarded amaxs for medium game.
 
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