nightowl
Member
Gents (particularly the varmint through medium game hunter types),
Anybody have any experience yet with the new ELD **MATCH** bullets (*not the ELD X) in terms of terminal performance?
They are still very new (many are just released), especially in the smaller calibers (below 6.5mm) - so there's probably a low probability that anybody has had a chance to try them yet, and we'll probably all have to wait until Spring to see how they perform on the woodchucks, rock chucks, and prairie dogs. BUT, there might be some coyote or late season deer hunters out there that can help us out in the meantime.
**Stop reading here unless you: need something to read while you drink your very large cup of fresh coffee that you just poured for yourself, need something to help you fall asleep, are a glutton for punishment, or are incensed at the idea of somebody actually using a 'Match' bullet for hunting live game. If you're one of these, then read on....but remember, I warned you.
For the guys who are getting ready to jump all over me and point out that the A-Max was conceived and designed by Hornady to strictly be a match bullet meant for punching holes in paper: YES, I do realize that fact, but if you think like that you just told me one of two things:
A - you don't actually hunt varmints up through medium sized game at extended ranges
or
B- you do, but sadly, you've been missing out on one of the best long range killing bullets that there has ever been. Period.
(and notice I said 'LONG RANGE' - the A-Max is a relatively fragile bullet (perfect for soft stuff like varmints) that can, sometimes, produce less than optimal results on bigger, tougher game (heck, even medium sized game if you try to shoot through the shoulder) especially at the closer ranges at the higher velocities - this is where the awesome new ELD - X line will probably solve that issue quite well). Hence Hornady doesn't officially recommend their 'Match' bullets for hunting. The problem is, I think they themselves, may not even realize just how good their A-Max's are (unfortunately were) for the above stated purpose of hunting varmints up to medium sized game at longer ranges, and they may have 'fixed' the ELD-Match into being a better, match bullet that you should only use on paper now. But the fact is at this time I DON'T KNOW. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong and not to worry about it. Please tell me Hornady tested their new ELD Match bullets on game like coyotes and groundhogs to see how they actually worked. But I tend to doubt that happened since they have probably been spending all their time when not eating or sleeping, slaving next to that $100,000 plus doppler unit only to benefit us, their loyal customers. Not to mention either, that they don't officially recommend their A-Max line for hunting. That's what the V-Max line is for, after all, right? But what about when the wind blows? Show me a .22 cal V-Max that has a b.c. that's anywhere even near the .22 cal 75 and 80 grain A-Max? And they kill SO well. Same goes for 6mm with their 105 A-Max. The 87 V-Max is pretty respectable, but I hunted groundhogs for three days with an identical pair of twin 1:9 twist .240 Wby's, side by side, one with the 87 and the other the 105 - both loaded up to max speed. The general consensus after 3 days was that the 105 A-Max (match bullet) was better, especially at extended ranges. With the 105 I even shot a crow (relatively soft target offering little bullet resistance) at 410 yards that sent half spinning violently to the left and the other half violently to the right, the sound of which, when it finally reached us sounded a lot like somebody wildly tearing their shirt in half.
I'll admit that I'm an A-Max 'fan-boy' through and through, and that it, in its various forms over the years (the old aluminum tips from around 1995 were even better yet-still a mystery to this day why they were discontinued, except for the big .50 cal anyway) is my all-time favorite bullet, so when I saw that Hornady had discovered that the tips (polycarbonate I think) were melting and allowing the b.c.'s to degrade at extended ranges, and that they were making changes to fix that problem, I was impressed.
But if this was indeed the case, I can say that in the past experience, it sure didn't seem to hurt the accuracy, even at extended ranges. Also, I had this nagging feeling that with this new tip that doesn't melt (and I would assume, soften up before impact) they might be 'toughening up' the bullet too much and possibly ruining my beloved, favorite hunting bullet. Only time would tell. For a time it looked like they were only doing that in the larger calibers, 6.5mm and up where they were also offering a totally new design specifically created for hunting - the ELD-X. So, everybody should still at least be able to enjoy the incredible performance in their long range varmint and deer rigs, performance that's hard to beat, especially at a very reasonable price $. So now I open up the new 2017 Hornady product catalog and see that the only A-Max's left are the .30 cal 155 and 168's (and the .50 cal 750gr - don't change that one either - it's absolutely perfect). Oh boy.
So let's get some terminal performance reports. One of the earliest ELD Match (new and improved A-Max) bullets to roll out was the big .338 cal 285 grainer. I read a customer review at one of the big online vendors (this last Summer 2016) that compared its performance to the original 285gr A-Max that he had been using previously in his .338 Lapua. He said basically (I'm paraphrasing and remembering) that it was wonderfully accurate (just like the original A-Max with the now apparently 'unacceptable substandard' tips) but when he shot at plastic gallon water jugs at 850 yards, instead of exploding like they used to, the new ELD's just made a tiny little hole though the jug (this is much like what I would expect to see from a relatively tough, full metal jacketed bullet- one I would not want to use on an animal where I wasn't hunting strictly for pelts to minimize damage from exit wounds). Uh-oh. I realize this is only one example of terminal performance for the new bullets, and a fairly artificial one at that - so if I specifically want to explode plastic gallon water jugs at 850, I might want to try a different bullet. BUT this is an actual example of terminal performance, nonetheless, and it's one I've used in the past, AND it's probably a lot closer to being a reliable indicator of what might happen to one of those bullets if you put it through a big animal in say a double lung or liver shot. It sure didn't do anything to help alleviate that nagging worry I have.
Hopefully (PLEASE tell me) I'm wrong and the new ELD Match bullets prove to be just as explosive as the beloved A-Max's were, and this is NOT just like when they screwed up our Coca-Cola back in the 80's (anybody remember that one?).
Of all the the guys that I know who absolutely love the performance of the A-Max on game shot from their hot rod long range varmint and deer rifles, I'd imagine that the A-Max's had to be a pretty popular seller for Hornady, but I honestly don't know without calling and asking their marketing folks. However, to consider the old A-Max as strictly a paper-puncher is a big mistake, in my (biased and somewhat limited) opinion. Maybe with the new ELD tips, that will all change, but I don't know anybody who stuck with the A-Max for competition. What I'm saying is that I can't imagine that they were selling a lot them to the 'Match' aka target shooting customer base and that I would guess a high percentage of what they did sell went to the hunters like me, the people using the fast-twist hot rods. From the serious target shooters that I personally know, many people tried them for competition, but as I just said none stayed with them. Admittedly I'm not too familiar with the across the course or service rifle scene, so it might be a different story there, especially with the folks using the AR platforms, but as far as the 1,000 yd bench rest crowd goes, I personally know a lot of 1,000 yd bench rest competitors, many of whom have set world records in the past, and none of them are actually using the A-Max's for their original purpose intended by Hornady. The ones that do use the A-Max's, hunt with them and consider them legendary as much as I do. The only guy who I can think of that repeatedly used the A-Max in competition (if memory serves) was Hornady's tech rep Lonnie Hummel who shot the 80 grainer in his 22-6mm in 1,000 yard competitions. I think they shot pretty well, but I don't think he was setting records with them.
Just so no one gets the wrong idea - I absolutely LOVE Hornady - Dave Emary and the crew are doing a lot of cutting edge research right now for the shooting community (and very openly sharing it with everybody, I might add - very admirable, thank you for that too) - they made my favorite bullets and offered them at prices that I wouldn't have to be sleeping on the couch for buying - but my only possible criticism is that maybe, just maybe they might be missing the boat with this whole scrapping of almost the entire A-Max line in favor of the tougher-tipped ELD Match line. If they start making ELD-X bullets designed to reliably blow up ground hogs or coyotes in .22 cal and 6mm with b.c.'s at least equal to their old A-Max counterparts, I'll be buying them for sure. I might be wrong, and I sure hope I am, but till then get out there and shoot some stuff and let us all know how the new Match bullets work.
(sorry, I got a little carried away, but I had a lot of coffee too).
Anybody have any experience yet with the new ELD **MATCH** bullets (*not the ELD X) in terms of terminal performance?
They are still very new (many are just released), especially in the smaller calibers (below 6.5mm) - so there's probably a low probability that anybody has had a chance to try them yet, and we'll probably all have to wait until Spring to see how they perform on the woodchucks, rock chucks, and prairie dogs. BUT, there might be some coyote or late season deer hunters out there that can help us out in the meantime.
**Stop reading here unless you: need something to read while you drink your very large cup of fresh coffee that you just poured for yourself, need something to help you fall asleep, are a glutton for punishment, or are incensed at the idea of somebody actually using a 'Match' bullet for hunting live game. If you're one of these, then read on....but remember, I warned you.
For the guys who are getting ready to jump all over me and point out that the A-Max was conceived and designed by Hornady to strictly be a match bullet meant for punching holes in paper: YES, I do realize that fact, but if you think like that you just told me one of two things:
A - you don't actually hunt varmints up through medium sized game at extended ranges
or
B- you do, but sadly, you've been missing out on one of the best long range killing bullets that there has ever been. Period.
(and notice I said 'LONG RANGE' - the A-Max is a relatively fragile bullet (perfect for soft stuff like varmints) that can, sometimes, produce less than optimal results on bigger, tougher game (heck, even medium sized game if you try to shoot through the shoulder) especially at the closer ranges at the higher velocities - this is where the awesome new ELD - X line will probably solve that issue quite well). Hence Hornady doesn't officially recommend their 'Match' bullets for hunting. The problem is, I think they themselves, may not even realize just how good their A-Max's are (unfortunately were) for the above stated purpose of hunting varmints up to medium sized game at longer ranges, and they may have 'fixed' the ELD-Match into being a better, match bullet that you should only use on paper now. But the fact is at this time I DON'T KNOW. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong and not to worry about it. Please tell me Hornady tested their new ELD Match bullets on game like coyotes and groundhogs to see how they actually worked. But I tend to doubt that happened since they have probably been spending all their time when not eating or sleeping, slaving next to that $100,000 plus doppler unit only to benefit us, their loyal customers. Not to mention either, that they don't officially recommend their A-Max line for hunting. That's what the V-Max line is for, after all, right? But what about when the wind blows? Show me a .22 cal V-Max that has a b.c. that's anywhere even near the .22 cal 75 and 80 grain A-Max? And they kill SO well. Same goes for 6mm with their 105 A-Max. The 87 V-Max is pretty respectable, but I hunted groundhogs for three days with an identical pair of twin 1:9 twist .240 Wby's, side by side, one with the 87 and the other the 105 - both loaded up to max speed. The general consensus after 3 days was that the 105 A-Max (match bullet) was better, especially at extended ranges. With the 105 I even shot a crow (relatively soft target offering little bullet resistance) at 410 yards that sent half spinning violently to the left and the other half violently to the right, the sound of which, when it finally reached us sounded a lot like somebody wildly tearing their shirt in half.
I'll admit that I'm an A-Max 'fan-boy' through and through, and that it, in its various forms over the years (the old aluminum tips from around 1995 were even better yet-still a mystery to this day why they were discontinued, except for the big .50 cal anyway) is my all-time favorite bullet, so when I saw that Hornady had discovered that the tips (polycarbonate I think) were melting and allowing the b.c.'s to degrade at extended ranges, and that they were making changes to fix that problem, I was impressed.
But if this was indeed the case, I can say that in the past experience, it sure didn't seem to hurt the accuracy, even at extended ranges. Also, I had this nagging feeling that with this new tip that doesn't melt (and I would assume, soften up before impact) they might be 'toughening up' the bullet too much and possibly ruining my beloved, favorite hunting bullet. Only time would tell. For a time it looked like they were only doing that in the larger calibers, 6.5mm and up where they were also offering a totally new design specifically created for hunting - the ELD-X. So, everybody should still at least be able to enjoy the incredible performance in their long range varmint and deer rigs, performance that's hard to beat, especially at a very reasonable price $. So now I open up the new 2017 Hornady product catalog and see that the only A-Max's left are the .30 cal 155 and 168's (and the .50 cal 750gr - don't change that one either - it's absolutely perfect). Oh boy.
So let's get some terminal performance reports. One of the earliest ELD Match (new and improved A-Max) bullets to roll out was the big .338 cal 285 grainer. I read a customer review at one of the big online vendors (this last Summer 2016) that compared its performance to the original 285gr A-Max that he had been using previously in his .338 Lapua. He said basically (I'm paraphrasing and remembering) that it was wonderfully accurate (just like the original A-Max with the now apparently 'unacceptable substandard' tips) but when he shot at plastic gallon water jugs at 850 yards, instead of exploding like they used to, the new ELD's just made a tiny little hole though the jug (this is much like what I would expect to see from a relatively tough, full metal jacketed bullet- one I would not want to use on an animal where I wasn't hunting strictly for pelts to minimize damage from exit wounds). Uh-oh. I realize this is only one example of terminal performance for the new bullets, and a fairly artificial one at that - so if I specifically want to explode plastic gallon water jugs at 850, I might want to try a different bullet. BUT this is an actual example of terminal performance, nonetheless, and it's one I've used in the past, AND it's probably a lot closer to being a reliable indicator of what might happen to one of those bullets if you put it through a big animal in say a double lung or liver shot. It sure didn't do anything to help alleviate that nagging worry I have.
Hopefully (PLEASE tell me) I'm wrong and the new ELD Match bullets prove to be just as explosive as the beloved A-Max's were, and this is NOT just like when they screwed up our Coca-Cola back in the 80's (anybody remember that one?).
Of all the the guys that I know who absolutely love the performance of the A-Max on game shot from their hot rod long range varmint and deer rifles, I'd imagine that the A-Max's had to be a pretty popular seller for Hornady, but I honestly don't know without calling and asking their marketing folks. However, to consider the old A-Max as strictly a paper-puncher is a big mistake, in my (biased and somewhat limited) opinion. Maybe with the new ELD tips, that will all change, but I don't know anybody who stuck with the A-Max for competition. What I'm saying is that I can't imagine that they were selling a lot them to the 'Match' aka target shooting customer base and that I would guess a high percentage of what they did sell went to the hunters like me, the people using the fast-twist hot rods. From the serious target shooters that I personally know, many people tried them for competition, but as I just said none stayed with them. Admittedly I'm not too familiar with the across the course or service rifle scene, so it might be a different story there, especially with the folks using the AR platforms, but as far as the 1,000 yd bench rest crowd goes, I personally know a lot of 1,000 yd bench rest competitors, many of whom have set world records in the past, and none of them are actually using the A-Max's for their original purpose intended by Hornady. The ones that do use the A-Max's, hunt with them and consider them legendary as much as I do. The only guy who I can think of that repeatedly used the A-Max in competition (if memory serves) was Hornady's tech rep Lonnie Hummel who shot the 80 grainer in his 22-6mm in 1,000 yard competitions. I think they shot pretty well, but I don't think he was setting records with them.
Just so no one gets the wrong idea - I absolutely LOVE Hornady - Dave Emary and the crew are doing a lot of cutting edge research right now for the shooting community (and very openly sharing it with everybody, I might add - very admirable, thank you for that too) - they made my favorite bullets and offered them at prices that I wouldn't have to be sleeping on the couch for buying - but my only possible criticism is that maybe, just maybe they might be missing the boat with this whole scrapping of almost the entire A-Max line in favor of the tougher-tipped ELD Match line. If they start making ELD-X bullets designed to reliably blow up ground hogs or coyotes in .22 cal and 6mm with b.c.'s at least equal to their old A-Max counterparts, I'll be buying them for sure. I might be wrong, and I sure hope I am, but till then get out there and shoot some stuff and let us all know how the new Match bullets work.
(sorry, I got a little carried away, but I had a lot of coffee too).