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tac arrows
- Thread starter slugger61
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The Firenock AeroBolt II-250, Aerobolt II-200 and Aerobolt II-DS are all spine matched and with optional spine index. In most cases, you got a full dozen with +/- 3 grains without the nock and point. With the point and nocks, most customer should be able to get it with +/- 1 grains. You can obtain them at Long range hunting as I just send Andy 3 dozens of the AeroBolt II-200. If you want custom built ones for camel and water buffalo, you got to look at the dragon slayer(DS) which is the big game version of the aerobolt. They are closer to 1000 grains with the point and nock. FYI, I just ship a full dozen with everything in it to Ludmilla Northern Territory Australia last week.
Link below.
Aerovane Crossbow Bolts Firenock arrows
Twanger
Well-Known Member
Hmmmmm.... I've had nothing but great results with standard Tac15 arrows.
Can you QUANTIFY the variability you are seeing? How many grains different are the arrows?
So far, the ones that I have received are consistent enough that I don't dare shoot them at the same bull's eye at 50 yards!
Can you QUANTIFY the variability you are seeing? How many grains different are the arrows?
So far, the ones that I have received are consistent enough that I don't dare shoot them at the same bull's eye at 50 yards!
If one is happy with what you already have, stick with it. It is like quantify why BMW 335is is a better can than a Honda Civic Si. They both will get the job done. For those who wanted more and know what they wanted, needed, and able to squeeze more, I offer them the ultimate shooting experience.
Twanger
Well-Known Member
Dorge - I was not clear, and apologize.
I was actually asking Slugger to quantify the variability he was seeing.
For example: how many grains? What size groups are unacceptible?
As an engineer I'm very tuned into cost/performance tradeoffs.
As a deer management hunter who kills dozens of deer per year I am willing to accept performance somewhere close to "the knee in the curve."
For a projectile that I launch into the "unknown" at 400 fps, I for one am keenly aware cost/benefit.
I shoot Norma Oryx ammo in my .308 because it perform better that "Chevy" cartridges.
If it didn't, I wouldn't.
Since I don't know if Slugger is a Rolls, Mercedes, Beemer, Honda, or Chevy kinda-guy I thought I'd start with quantitative questions.
I was actually asking Slugger to quantify the variability he was seeing.
For example: how many grains? What size groups are unacceptible?
As an engineer I'm very tuned into cost/performance tradeoffs.
As a deer management hunter who kills dozens of deer per year I am willing to accept performance somewhere close to "the knee in the curve."
For a projectile that I launch into the "unknown" at 400 fps, I for one am keenly aware cost/benefit.
I shoot Norma Oryx ammo in my .308 because it perform better that "Chevy" cartridges.
If it didn't, I wouldn't.
Since I don't know if Slugger is a Rolls, Mercedes, Beemer, Honda, or Chevy kinda-guy I thought I'd start with quantitative questions.
sorry for not repling been busy the tac arrows were all weighed seperatly shafts points etc and up to 8 grains different not a big deal if you want to shoot short distants i have other bows for that i would like to be able to shoot out alot furher than them other wise whats the point i dont have than time or the money to buy alot arrows only to match afew i suppose were all in the same boat thanks for the replys
Twanger
Well-Known Member
I'll have to weigh some of the standard PSE arrows and see what the variability is in the arrows I'm receiving.
My Tac15i has an aftermarket 3.5# Timney trigger, an HHA Speed Dial, and standard Whisker Biscuit rest. At 50 yards it is shooting standard arrows through the same hole on occasion. Sub-one-inch groups are expected and generally accomplished. I don't shoot at the same spot at 50 yards anymore because I don't want to damage arrows - it's virtually a certainty if I do. This is better than a lot of 'off-the-shelf' guns. The standard arrows shoot 2.5-3" groups at 100 yards.(for me).
Note that the arrows are dropping by about 2-inches per yard at this range, so if your range estimation in a hunting situation is off by 2-3 yards you will miss your target by 4-6 inches. This is a very practical limitation on field use.
In addition, my ability to get broadheads to fly accurately, my ability to get a solid rest under field conditions, the repeatability of the speed-dial (all mechanical systems have hysteresis and variability), and my ability to get a range estimate on moving animals are factors that cause greater uncertainty in the result of the shot than the standard PSE arrow matching produces.(my $0.02)
So. For the type of hunting I do, on deer at ranges generally under 60 yards, all of this tells me that the standard PSE arrows are more than up to the drill. For me. In summary, the arrow performance has not been the weak link - for me.
Your results may differ. If you're trying to accomplish some other goal, perhaps tighter arrows matching is for you. The benefit depends on how good the remainder of your system is.
My Tac15i has an aftermarket 3.5# Timney trigger, an HHA Speed Dial, and standard Whisker Biscuit rest. At 50 yards it is shooting standard arrows through the same hole on occasion. Sub-one-inch groups are expected and generally accomplished. I don't shoot at the same spot at 50 yards anymore because I don't want to damage arrows - it's virtually a certainty if I do. This is better than a lot of 'off-the-shelf' guns. The standard arrows shoot 2.5-3" groups at 100 yards.(for me).
Note that the arrows are dropping by about 2-inches per yard at this range, so if your range estimation in a hunting situation is off by 2-3 yards you will miss your target by 4-6 inches. This is a very practical limitation on field use.
In addition, my ability to get broadheads to fly accurately, my ability to get a solid rest under field conditions, the repeatability of the speed-dial (all mechanical systems have hysteresis and variability), and my ability to get a range estimate on moving animals are factors that cause greater uncertainty in the result of the shot than the standard PSE arrow matching produces.(my $0.02)
So. For the type of hunting I do, on deer at ranges generally under 60 yards, all of this tells me that the standard PSE arrows are more than up to the drill. For me. In summary, the arrow performance has not been the weak link - for me.
Your results may differ. If you're trying to accomplish some other goal, perhaps tighter arrows matching is for you. The benefit depends on how good the remainder of your system is.
jon.henry755
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 391
Hi Slugger61,
I've been posting threads about this problem for almost two years now and the problem gets worse as you look further into it. It's not just the deviation in the shafts, it's also the deviation in the field points themselves, that further complicates the problem.
So here are some tips that should help you solve these problems. First up is the quality of the arrows themselves. The PSE TAC15 arrows are a less than great quality of carbon and as such they are both out of round and inconsistent in shaft wall thickness. They only have a straightness factor of .003 end to end.
The latest Firenock Aerovane II, 200 arrow shafts are much more well suited in "Spine" and the carbon is a much new, more advanced woven fabric that utilizes the latest adhesive bonding technology to create a carbon arrow shaft that is completely uniform in roundness diameter, shaft wall thickness and has an end to end straightness factor of .001. These new arrows are much, much tougher than anything else available on the market and they are extremely closely matched in shaft to shaft weight.
Now let's talk for just a moment about the long range shooting capability of their latest arrows; these arrows are using much better fitting nocks and are equipped with "Aerovanes". "So What", you ask. Aerovane II's are the first vane ever produced to take advantage of the aerodynamic properties of "Lift" instead of the typical vanes that all work on the properties of "DRAG". Lift allows the arrow to maintain it's velocity much longer than a normal arrow that is slowed down by the properties of drag, therefore it will begin to drop much sooner. The Aerovane also imparts more "Spin" or "Rotation" on the arrow, so this makes it less susceptible to cross wind interferences than other arrows.
Last, Aerovane uses "Machined Field Points" that are closely matched in weight and they also fit their Field Points with Dual O-Rings to custom fit into their specially machined Inserts. This insures a perfectly balanced fit to maintain a concentric balance on the arrow shaft.
In short, you get what you pay for and there's absolutely no comparison between the PSE TAC15 Arrows and those produced by Firenock. Once you see or try using the new Aerobolt II's, you'll never be able to go back to using other arrows again.
So now let's talk about how to patch up the PSE TAC15 Arrows so they're somewhat usable. I add "Carbon Express CXL250 Bull Dog Nock Collars" to the back end of all my TAC15 Arrows. This does three things.
1. It maintains the roundness of the arrow shaft because the shaft can't
collapse the metal collar.
2. It adds a great deal of strength to the back of the arrow to stand up to rear
end collisions from other arrows.
3. It allows me to add extra small amounts of "Epoxy Cement" during the
installation process. I use this to add a few extra Grains of weight when
needed to match the weight of my heaviest shaft within a group.
Between the nock collars and gluing in the nocks themselves, if you are working with an electronic gram scale set to measure "Grains", you should easily be able to use a slow set Epoxy Cement to match the weight of each arrow down to the tenth of a grain. Always start with your heaviest shaft and after bonding the nock and collar using the smallest possible amount of glue record the finished weight of this shaft. Then bring all others to this weight by adding enough glue to achieve your desired finished weight.
It takes some time to complete them, but when finished they should be weight matched. PSE also does not provide closely matched Spines on their arrow shafts and they don't mark the stiff side of the spine on their arrows, so you will likely have some flight problems from shaft to shaft due to different oscillation frequencies or another words "Timing Problems" due to nocks not being properly "Indexed".
Firenock offers all this in their arrow shafts, so if anyone actually understood all the extras they were getting when purchasing the Firenock Aerobolt II arrows, they wouldn't hesitate to buy them. It's like trying to compare a Ferrari to a Volkswagon and wondering why the Volkswagon can't win a race against the other car.
When all we had was the PSE TAC15 arrows, we had to do the best we could and make due with them, but as in many things, times have changed and there are much better choices available today. For target shooting, I'd recommend the Aerobolt II - 250's, but for the hunter there's no better shaft than the newest Aerobolt II - 200's. These shafts hit like a ton of bricks and yet posses all the quality and straightness of the 250's.
I have a half dozen of the 200's, but the other half dozen is on the top of my Christmas List, just in case anybody is listening!!!!
P.S. - As I understand it, Andy and Len (Santa Claus) Backus are now stocking these outstanding arrow shafts in their LRH Store, so we don't have very far to go to find them.
My last comment for the night; I don't want people to think that these arrows I'm referring to are the best that money can buy for the TAC15 Crossbows because that would be a severe understatement. These are the best arrows that can be bought for "ANY" crossbow regardless of manufacturer. Jim, the owner of "Scorpyd" tested and used these same arrows for his latest "Ventilator 165 Series Crossbows, the latest line of "Mathews" crossbows and most of the newest 375 fps crossbows and up are all finding out why these new arrows are the best in the industry. But hey, don't just take my word for it, find out yourself why they're so special.
Regards,
Jon Henry
I've been posting threads about this problem for almost two years now and the problem gets worse as you look further into it. It's not just the deviation in the shafts, it's also the deviation in the field points themselves, that further complicates the problem.
So here are some tips that should help you solve these problems. First up is the quality of the arrows themselves. The PSE TAC15 arrows are a less than great quality of carbon and as such they are both out of round and inconsistent in shaft wall thickness. They only have a straightness factor of .003 end to end.
The latest Firenock Aerovane II, 200 arrow shafts are much more well suited in "Spine" and the carbon is a much new, more advanced woven fabric that utilizes the latest adhesive bonding technology to create a carbon arrow shaft that is completely uniform in roundness diameter, shaft wall thickness and has an end to end straightness factor of .001. These new arrows are much, much tougher than anything else available on the market and they are extremely closely matched in shaft to shaft weight.
Now let's talk for just a moment about the long range shooting capability of their latest arrows; these arrows are using much better fitting nocks and are equipped with "Aerovanes". "So What", you ask. Aerovane II's are the first vane ever produced to take advantage of the aerodynamic properties of "Lift" instead of the typical vanes that all work on the properties of "DRAG". Lift allows the arrow to maintain it's velocity much longer than a normal arrow that is slowed down by the properties of drag, therefore it will begin to drop much sooner. The Aerovane also imparts more "Spin" or "Rotation" on the arrow, so this makes it less susceptible to cross wind interferences than other arrows.
Last, Aerovane uses "Machined Field Points" that are closely matched in weight and they also fit their Field Points with Dual O-Rings to custom fit into their specially machined Inserts. This insures a perfectly balanced fit to maintain a concentric balance on the arrow shaft.
In short, you get what you pay for and there's absolutely no comparison between the PSE TAC15 Arrows and those produced by Firenock. Once you see or try using the new Aerobolt II's, you'll never be able to go back to using other arrows again.
So now let's talk about how to patch up the PSE TAC15 Arrows so they're somewhat usable. I add "Carbon Express CXL250 Bull Dog Nock Collars" to the back end of all my TAC15 Arrows. This does three things.
1. It maintains the roundness of the arrow shaft because the shaft can't
collapse the metal collar.
2. It adds a great deal of strength to the back of the arrow to stand up to rear
end collisions from other arrows.
3. It allows me to add extra small amounts of "Epoxy Cement" during the
installation process. I use this to add a few extra Grains of weight when
needed to match the weight of my heaviest shaft within a group.
Between the nock collars and gluing in the nocks themselves, if you are working with an electronic gram scale set to measure "Grains", you should easily be able to use a slow set Epoxy Cement to match the weight of each arrow down to the tenth of a grain. Always start with your heaviest shaft and after bonding the nock and collar using the smallest possible amount of glue record the finished weight of this shaft. Then bring all others to this weight by adding enough glue to achieve your desired finished weight.
It takes some time to complete them, but when finished they should be weight matched. PSE also does not provide closely matched Spines on their arrow shafts and they don't mark the stiff side of the spine on their arrows, so you will likely have some flight problems from shaft to shaft due to different oscillation frequencies or another words "Timing Problems" due to nocks not being properly "Indexed".
Firenock offers all this in their arrow shafts, so if anyone actually understood all the extras they were getting when purchasing the Firenock Aerobolt II arrows, they wouldn't hesitate to buy them. It's like trying to compare a Ferrari to a Volkswagon and wondering why the Volkswagon can't win a race against the other car.
When all we had was the PSE TAC15 arrows, we had to do the best we could and make due with them, but as in many things, times have changed and there are much better choices available today. For target shooting, I'd recommend the Aerobolt II - 250's, but for the hunter there's no better shaft than the newest Aerobolt II - 200's. These shafts hit like a ton of bricks and yet posses all the quality and straightness of the 250's.
I have a half dozen of the 200's, but the other half dozen is on the top of my Christmas List, just in case anybody is listening!!!!
P.S. - As I understand it, Andy and Len (Santa Claus) Backus are now stocking these outstanding arrow shafts in their LRH Store, so we don't have very far to go to find them.
My last comment for the night; I don't want people to think that these arrows I'm referring to are the best that money can buy for the TAC15 Crossbows because that would be a severe understatement. These are the best arrows that can be bought for "ANY" crossbow regardless of manufacturer. Jim, the owner of "Scorpyd" tested and used these same arrows for his latest "Ventilator 165 Series Crossbows, the latest line of "Mathews" crossbows and most of the newest 375 fps crossbows and up are all finding out why these new arrows are the best in the industry. But hey, don't just take my word for it, find out yourself why they're so special.
Regards,
Jon Henry
