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Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by bowhunter020, Jan 9, 2019.
That is your opinion.
Yes and no! It is the opinion of many people. Unlike a lot though I do not pull my opinions out of my rear like talking points. I am not a belief oriented person when it comes to bullet construction, powders, cartridges I am more of a numbers man. Belief which is what 99.9% of humans base their daily decisions on are seldom ground in anything remotely resembling a fact. That is fine for romantic relationships and religion we call that "Faith" or "Belief" it has no place in rifles, powders, bullets etc....
No in this case I am basing it on personal observation and secondly on the observations of many many people that I know that both hunt and shoot competitive and their observation.
I would say this though how many solidly constructed controlled expansion or partition type hunting rounds are there that are also VLD. My opinion about the 243 is not opinion it is a 100% fact based on a lot of testing on larger game like deer. When you shoot an animal and then exam the bullet and how it behaved inside the animal that is fact not fancy. You can see if the jacket separated with your eye's. You measure how much it expanded. You can track the wound channels. You can weight all of the pieces and count the number of pieces a given bullet broke into. Anything you can measure repeatably is empirical evidence. If you do that enough and get repeatable results that is as good as it get's. I clearly stated I was talking about deer sized game and larger. There is no voodoo in bullet design especially when talking about hunting.
When you start shooting at extreme range it is like the wild west since you can not reasonably guarantee the bullet has enough speed to expand so it can go both ways for sure!
Magnums have always had issues with jackets on hunting cartridges because at close range the velocities can be insane and if you hit structure instead of soft tissue the bullet can easily disintegrate on impact or have it's path changed from the one intended by the shooter this was the idea of the 5.56 Nato they wanted it to break apart inside, tumble, and bounce around inside the body. They wanted to wound men not kill them out right because that is a bigger logistics suck than a clean kill if fighting another Army and no insurgents. So they went with a high velocity cartridge that was not that heavy and not too stoutly constructed. That is why heavy for caliber medium velocity heavy jacket soft point bullets are more reliable to be lethal than VLD hyper velocity rounds. The problem is that sort of bullet lacks the flat trajectory a lot of people think they need. That means you have to stalk the animal not just to find it but once found you need to get close enough for a clean kill. That is not the fashionable and trendy way to hunt today. Their is a reason dangerous game cartridges do not use VLD modern bullets. If someone wanted to modernize a Nitro Express Cartridge and have custom reamers made it could be done easily but we already know that does not work well. Anyone that has hunted with black powder muzzle loaders and not used modern projectiles can tell you that if and when you hit the animal it is not running a long way away from you. Tracking it down is fairly easy because the blood trail is huge. On the other hand think about what happened when people tried using the 22-250 on Elk when it first came out! It was not a good thing at all. Not that that stopped the idiot gun writers of the day from trying it repeatedly.
For the record the recoil on the 6.5CM and 6.5 PRC is greater than it is on the 243 Win, 260 Rem or the 6.5x55 Swede. Which people always seem to leave out of the discussion. That is not a huge deal for a medium stature man on up but for smaller stature people like women and children it might be of note.
Any time you make a bullet VLD it is difficult to keep it's structural integrity up to par for a modern hunting projectile. It is also difficult to find ones that shoot good in a factory rifle due to slower twist rates used by factory produced rifles. You normally have to use a lighter bullet than is ideal on the game your hunting if it is not wearing a custom barrel. This is why a 220gr round nose bullet in a 30-06 will stabilize just fine in a factory rifle or a rifle with a 30 year old twist rate. Try to stabilize a 210gr-230gr VLD in that same rifle and good luck! The thicker you make the jacket and the more things you add to the bullet like a partition or interlock rings the more variation you have from projectile to projectile in all measurable parameters.You also want a harder alloy for hunting than you would use for a target round or for light varmints. That is why a great target load is not a great hunting load and the reverse is true too. Every parameter of a bullet design is a trade off. You do not get to have it all and a free lunch too!
For target work assuming your rifle will shoot them well is the best thing since sliced bread. In a hunting situation though the VLD's do not make a lot of since which is why all the premium bullet makers make some hunting projectiles in 6mm and 6.5mm that are not VLD at all especialy the premium companies that will never do the volume of Hornady or Sierra in the USA.
Huge fan of 257 wby mag! What I currently shoot. Or a good 25-06 and easy to find ammo. As far as deer I really like the .257 cal! Would also look at a 270wsm with a 130gr bullet it’s a solid option. If I wanted a sporter type I would go with the 270wsm, but if I didn’t mind a 26” barrel I would go with the 257 wby mag or a 25-06, I run Leupolds on my hunting rifles and have never had an issue! VX3 3.5-10x50 and VX3 4.5-15x50 and a VX3 6.5-20x40, have had them all for 10+ years!
Thats not a true statement. Maybe regarding the 6.5 PRC, but the 260 and 6.5 swede both have greater case capacity than the creed, which equals more recoil. My son has a creed and I have a 260 - no difference in recoil.
You are comparing a 300 win mag on a whitetail at 650 yards to 45-70 on a squirrel at 30ft? Seems a little out there man - would you shoot a whitetail with a 308 win at 300 yards and feel like a fool? The 300 win mag at 650 has about the same energy as a 308 at 300...plus it is just a weird statement given the OP’s question and stating he wants something a little less than his 300 rum...
I have a sendero sfII in 25-06 and love it for deer and have even taken elk with it. The 26” barrel really lets that cartridge shine! I reload for it with 115 bergers, but have been wanting to try the new hornady precision hunters in it.
If it weren't for VLD bullets specifically Berger and Matrix and how much more lethal they are I would not be hunting to day, so many of the Hunting bullets out there either don't match well to the chamberings today or just flat suck because it's marketing that designed them!!
As to the OP, if you go to your local gun store or where ever you buy ammo and look at what is available, deer to 600 yards does not require much, likely you'll find a lot of 243, we found a 243 loaded with a 105 Berger to be an awesome combo even in elk. The 6 Creedmore also solid as well as any 6.5 in those capacities, you will likely find a plethora of 6.5 Creedmore on the shelf and it'll do quite nicely!!
You can have your current rem opened up and an M16 extractor installed at the time of I stalling a new barrel.
Gonna have to open the 223 feed rails on that 700 to make it work too.
How much experience do you have with the Lapua 6.5mm 139 grain Scenar??
Please reiterate what you want. Flat shooting? Or low recoil and cheap?
If you want flat, sell your two SA rifles and get a LA. Here are a few of my suggestions for chamberings for "flat" and have enough energy and speed to kill to 650 with some authority, but still have off the shelf ammo available for the non-handloader.
.280 Rem (or even the .280AI)
If "flat" is not as needed as you say, and it seems like it is not....
Any of these can be built off your R700SA with a bolt swap. Add a new barrel and some action work, and they should all be extremely accurate. Just not as "Flat" as other options out there. But deer killers to 650 for sure.
And to say VLDs do not work on deer is asinine. We have used them from 18 to over 1000 on deer. And from 60 to 882 on elk. And WAY out on coyotes.
And to say a 6.5CM has more recoil than a .260 Rem is even moreso if you are comparing similar bullets and rifle weights. I guess if you use a 6lb 6.5CM pushing a 147 ELD-M with a max load @ 2800fps vs a 15lb .260 Rem pushing a 120 SMK reduced recoil target load @ 2600fps....then yeah, sure.
Available quality ammo, without me having to reload. I'm pretty set on a proof research barrel but doesnt have to be, just like that look. Like the thought of 26nosler if it is truly 0-400 with minimal trajectory drop. I dont have to use an action I currently have just hate to buy a new/used gun just for the action. I wouldn't say I want cheap but do not want to spend 3000 on something I can build/have built for 2000.
To be honest, building a $2000 semi-custom is doable. But you will have to go with certain compromises to get there.
Here is a quick rundown:
R700SA (free-you have one)
New bolt- $100-500 (depending on what options you get like extractor, fluting, TI firing pin, alloy bolt shroud, knob, etc.)
New barrel- $300-800 (depending on make and features like length, fluted steel, carbon wrapped)
Recoil lug- $0-50 (I would go ahead and upgrade to a .250", but you can use your factory one to save a bit of $$)
Stock- $100-1000+ (totally depends on what you want to achieve and spend, all preference based)
Trigger- $80-350+ (a good trigger is nice for accuracy improvements. Your Rem trigger should be tunable to 2#+/-, aftermarket can go down to just a few ounces if you want)
Other options like: muzzle brake, Cerakote, side bolt release, aftermarket bottom metal or DBM+mags, scope base/Picatinny rail, etc.- $???
Labor: true action/bolt/lugs, thread and chamber barrel, cut/crown barrel or cut and thread and install/time a brake, bed stock, Cerakote, etc. $800-2000 depending on how much you want done.
I highly doubt you will be under $2000 with a Proof barrel installed with the raw barrel being 1/3+ of that goal alone.
Hate making discussions! Was narrowed down to 6.5-284. Then started reading 264wm, then some good comparisons to the 7mm cart. Seems like I'm gonna need a LA...
If you're going to quote someone quote the whole sentence. To do less, especially when doing so to cut off the point he was making is rather dishonest.