smokeless

DOOKSUX

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2011
Messages
5
Location
morehead city. NC
I shoot the ML II savage. My load is 40gr. of accurate 5744, 45 cal. hornady 250gr HP/XTP, MMP sabot, the best I can do at 100yds is 2 1/2 group and this is on a lead sled, I would really like to get close to an inch if possible, if anybody sees what might be wrong or knows of something that could help it would be appreceiated.
 
Hi Dooksux,

I shoot a 10ml and it loves the 300 grain sabots. I shoot .458 300 grain 45/70 barnes original to very good groups. I am using Viht. 120 to 2325 fps. It could be pushed harder, but this is where the accuracy is at and pushing 300 grains at these velocities will thump you.
 
You need to maybe change the sabot you are using to get a tighter fit with the bore.
I had this same problem until I switched sabots to a thicker one, now my ML is shooting 1 MOA @ 300 yards.
My load is Barnes 300gr originals with 58gr Vit120 and Harvester crushed rib sabots.
 
I shoot the ML II savage. My load is 40gr. of accurate 5744, 45 cal. hornady 250gr HP/XTP, MMP sabot, the best I can do at 100yds is 2 1/2 group and this is on a lead sled, I would really like to get close to an inch if possible, if anybody sees what might be wrong or knows of something that could help it would be appreceiated.

Other than I shoot 45gr of 5744 our set up is the same and I get 1in groups at 100yds. My savage tightened up at 44gr and started to spread at 45.7gr I backed it off to 45gr and have never moved it since.
 
This is not in the book...but it has been pressure tested.

If your gun wont shoot with a Harvester Black Crush Rib Sabot, a 300gr Barnes Original and +/- 60gr of Vhit N120 then the gun needs attention.

Mine shoots sub MOA at 100 with the above combination at 61.5gr of N120 and most every other one I have heard or read about will do at least decent. The downside is some wicked recoil and high dollar bullets and powder.

One caveat, if your gun has the plastic stock you may be banging your head against a wall. It takes a good stiff stock to make these guns shoot and the old Savage tupperware is not at all up to it. I replaced mine with a laminate and cut groups significantly.
 
I shoot the ML II savage. My load is 40gr. of accurate 5744, 45 cal. hornady 250gr HP/XTP, MMP sabot, the best I can do at 100yds is 2 1/2 group and this is on a lead sled, I would really like to get close to an inch if possible, if anybody sees what might be wrong or knows of something that could help it would be appreceiated.
I shot 5744 and plastic sabots in my ML 2 and that's about as good as it got for me as well. Be aware that the XTPs are sure killers at lower speeds ( they're designed for pistol velocity) they are like fragmentation a grenades at high velocities..In my opinion the Savage barrel is part of the problem, they are notorious for being rough. The FTX bullet has a little better BC and maybe a little thicker jacket, it is a rifle bullet. It isn't great at long range due to substantial drift but it will do the job at 2400 fps.
 
Clean the plastic fouling out of the bore with kroil and jb , clean till you have tennis elbow , i have owned three before i went to the bore riding guns , the savages are great guns, but a re finicky about action screw torque and plastic fouling
 
Dooksux,
I have put about 1600-1700 loads out of my stainless steel laminated stocked 10ML-II. I will add I had my 10ML-II's action glass bedded and a third action screw installed so I can remove the bolt with out having to loosen the action from the stock and the muzzle crowned by a very well regarded professional gun smith who was an expert in all things 10ML-II prior to taking a single shot. He also set my Accutrigger at 3lbs per my request.

What I am about to share with you I learned 95% of which over at Doug's Savage Message Board and it has worked superbly for me. I CAN NOT recommend strongly enough you go to Doug's Savage Message Board. There are tons of 10ML-II specific stickies there that will teach you all you need to know to get the maximum out of your 10ML-II. It is also populated with great people more than willing to help you with anything they can.

The longest shot I ever made on a animal with my 10ML-II was a very large public land late ML season mature doe that dressed out at over 140lbs. It was a laser range finder confirmed (before the shot) 307 yards quartering to the right broad side shot. She was out in a recently picked corn field with 6-7 other doe and dropped so fast I didn't see her fall due to recoil (equal to a 375 HH) and thought I had missed. Bullet went threw both lungs and broke the off shoulder as it exited made the heart and lungs an absolute mess.
Load was my favorite it works great in MY gun but I DO NOT recommend it as it is MOST definitely NOT a Savage recommended loading:
74 grains of RL10X
Barnes 300 grain 0.458" Original Semi-Spitzer or 290 grain flat based Barnes all copper T-MZ.
Harvester Black Crushed Rib Sabot for the 0.458'Barnes OSS
Harvester Smooth Black sabot for the Barnes 290 grain flat based T-MZ
Federal 209A primer
Chrono graphed at 2430 FPS/MV
This same load will push a 245 Spitfire, 250 grain TMZ or 250 Monoflex at 2655 FPS/MV I chose the 300grn Barnes O/SS as it was slightly more accurate at 300 yards.
Kills on one end maims on the other.

My 10ML-II is an honest 100 yard 1.25" MOA rifle all day long. Yes I have LOTS/dozens of sub-moa 100 and 200 yard one hole groups but 1.25" MOA at 100 and 2.2" MOA at 200 is what I normally can produce under all conditions. I have at least 10 three shot 100 yard groups using 245 gain Barnes all copper Spitfires from .5 moa to as small as .375 moa and 6 or 7 200 yard groups using 290 grain Barnes TMZ all copper bullets and VERY hard to find and VERY pricy (well over $1/EA) 0.458" 300 grain Barnes Semi spitzer's at 1.5 moa to as small as 1.25 moa but if I average them all out it's a 1.25"-100/2.2"-200 yard rifle pretty darn good IMO for a factory smokeless ML shooting saboted bullets at MV's of between 2450 and 2650 FPS/MV.
Truth be known if I reduce the MV down to anything between 2300 and below 2400fps I am sub-moa out to 200 yards but I'm willing to trade a insignificant degree of accuracy for almost 300fps more MV.
FWIW guys at Doug's shoot their 10ML-II's at ranges up to 500 yards.

What you must remember and take into constant consideration is you are shooting at much higher pressures and much much higher heats and velocities than a standard non-smokeless ML. Also the weak point/Achilles heal of a smokeless ML, and no worst enemy of your accuracy is your sabot. That's actually a good thing as a sabot acts as a kind of pressure relief valve in the event a severe over pressure event should ever occur.

Also sabot fowling will have impact your accuracy. This fact necessitates you used the best made most durable sabots you can find. In my experience Harvester makes the best sabots for ML's and I've tried every last sabot you can buy, all be it not that many are out there. What I do to remove plastic fouling after 30-50 shots is remove the bolt and breach plug plug the muzzle end, solidly secure it in a vertical position and fill the barrel with acetone and let sit at least 4 hours then clean as normal.

I can not recommend Harvester Sabots strongly enough. I have never experienced a blown or shredded sabot using harvesters. I absolutely can not say that about MMP sabots especially when I use 290-325 grain bullets at 2350-2450 FPS/MV
Here is a link to their website:
https://harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php/products/sabots

As far as how tight you want your sabot' bullet combo to fit in your barrel while loading I found if I can load my sabot clad bullet one handed with only moderate effort in MY EXPERIENCE that is too loose. My best most consistent accuracy was/is achieved when loading my sabot/bullet it requires using both hands and VERY considerable force and effort. Once I feel my sabot contact the powder using both hands and maximum force I pressed down on my ram rod as hard as I can using consistent force for a 1001/1002/1003 count to seat the sabot as firmly as possible on the powder. I do this to ensure consistent ignition.
Essentially I want my bullet/sabot to fit as tight as possible and still be able to load it in one continuous non stop fluid motion.
This is why I strongly recommend you use if at all possible bullets of a 0.458" OD VS 0.451-.452 OD. Yes I have gotten more than acceptable accuracy using 0.451-.452" OD bullets buy my most consistent accuracy has been using 0.458" bullets. But if all you can find or afford is bullets with a 0.451-.452" OD using the correct Harvester sabot, namely the Black Smooth Sabot specifically designed to be used with .0451-.452" bullets you should do well enough.

Added bit of info. If you are using a 0.452" 300 grain XTP IIRC, the petals of your sabot will extend past the end of the bullet and can cause issues with your bullet jag pinching them and damaging your sabot while loading. To solve this issue (another trick I learned at Doug's') I take a pair of quality brand new toenail clippers and using the stud in the clipper as a depth gauge clip off the excess length from each petal until they are slightly shorter than the XTP. As I use bullets who's tips extend beyond the sabot this is no longer an issue for me. But when I use my non-smokeless in lines and shoot XTP's I trim my sabots as described.

Remember you are essentially creating a loaded cartridge but the chamber is replacing the brass casing portion of the loaded cartridge so your sabot clad bullet MUST be very firmly seated and held very tightly in the chamber so it can not move up off the powder charge creating at worse a potentially dangerous situation and at best poor accuracy due to inconsistent pressures.

I use a T/C palm saver over the end of my ram rod to allow me to do this while in the field hunting. Link to the palm saver I use:
A cheaper palm saver:

When at the range doing load development I use a solid brass one piece T-handle range rod with a bore guide/muzzle protector. Here are links to the ones I bought and highly recommend:

Before I use the full length range rod I start every bullet/sabot using my all brass T-handle short starter also with a bore guide/muzzle protector on it. Here is an exact copy of the one I use at Ebay:

I own two. One for the range and one for the field. I also use Barnes bullet Aligner in the field while hunting and at the range in conjunction with a bore guide to keep my sabot/bullet combo square to the bore during loading while protecting the rifling and crown. Here is a link for it:

I also use a Spinjag bullet aligner as well works great better than the Barnes IME/IMO, but is over 2x the price of the Barnes. I use the 2.0 version WITHOUT the knurling. Here is the link for it:

First to help you with your accuracy goals, if you don't already know this, one factor above ALL OTHERS is the GOD of accuracy in all muzzleloaders, inlines as well as side hammers.
That factor is CONSISTENTCY. What I am about to tell you applies in my experiences to both my smokeless as well as non-smokeless inline ML's.

And no where is consistency more important than in your loading procedure AND your in-between shots cleaning procedure. You need to develop a loading procedure and perform it as close to the same exact way as possible every time you load your 10ML-II.
One trick I learned at Doug's that made a measurable improvement in my accuracy consistency was this:
Using a black Sharpie marker I mark on the muzzle where one of the raised portion of my rifling known as the lands (NOT groves but lands) of my barrel are and make sure I align one of the four petals of my sabot are centered on this land of bores rifling's. This insures your sabot petals will ride on the raised lands and not in the groves recessed into your bore.

After you develop a loading procedure, you must then develop what 10ML-II owners at Doug's Savage ML site call "Your in-between shots cleaning procedure.
My in between shots cleaning procedure is this.
1>Immediately after the shot while the barrel/chamber is still hot I remove the spent 209A primer and leave the bolt open and place my rifle in the corner of the cut out of the shooting bench with the recoil pad on a separate pad to protect it during loading process.
2>Using a .50 caliber nylon bore bush I using a spray bottle I dampen not saturate but dampen a patch with 91% Isopropyl alcohol place it centered on the nylon bore bush and then using my solid one piece brass range rod and bore guide run it all the way down the bore till it bottoms out and remove it flip it over and repeat then discard.
3>Using dry patch on the same nylon bore brush, run up and down bore 1x save to use as a cleaning patch for step #2.
4>Stand the rifle up against same cut out corner in the range bench that keeps the rifle from falling over and if temps are above 60*F wait at least a timed ten minuets to allow the barrel to cool. A too hot of a barrel will without doubt result in a weekend or sabot failure and poor accuracy.
That's it. Quite simple. Other guys at Doug's use different solvents including water and more patches but this method has worked extremely well for me.

This of course doesn't apply while shooting at the range in much colder temps. A a suggestion I use a laser thermometer and take my temp readings on the barrel just ahead of where it screws into the receiver just in front of the famous savage barrel nut. If you have difficulty getting readings stick a 2"piece of black Vinyl electrical tape on the same spot.

I do not do load development if I can avoid it in temps much above 75*/F due to issues with heat induced sabot failure. If temps are above 60* I keep my sabots in a small 12qt cooler with a reusable freeze pack. One thing I did do was buy from a guy at Doug's a solid one piece aluminum cooling rod he machined to have a BARELY smaller OD than my 10ML-II's bore ID. I also built out of plywood and 4" PVC a rod cooler about 2" shorter than my cooling rod that I first flat capped the bottom end of the 4" PVC then centered it in the square plywood cooler and secured it in place buy filling the reminder of the inside with great stuff expanding foam. I fill it up once at the range with ice and made a lid out of foam with a hole in the center to put the cooling rod threw and keep it centered in the ice. I remove the rod wipe off the water and put it in my barrel for 1-3 minuets it will actually cool off your barrel chamber very well and cut your wait time between shots by 80% in warmer temps.
If using the cooling rod I make sure to run a patch up and down the bore to remove any moisture that might be left.
You can also buy a battery powered aerator for bait buckets and run the tube for it into a cooler of ice that will blow cold air into your barrel and cool it also but the cooling rod is a better tool for the job.

One thing I must caution you about is shooting in the heat above 70-75*/F You can not shoot unless your barrel has become cool to the touch. If you don't do this you will have heat induced sabot issues that will adversely affect your accuracy and worse will give you false results and cause a load that has great potential to shoot badly or a load you had perform well do badly, again giving you false results.

I use plastic vials used for medical applications to hold my powder charges. I do use a brass powder funnel while at the range you can find them OTC at Cabela's or BP but here is the one I use and love but it's a range funnel only. Here is a link to the one I use it's the one with the handle.
For reloading in the field if I have time, I use the plain brass funnel, but a cheap plastic Lee reloading funnel works great.

My loading procedure is this:
First I made myself a "Loading block" out of gluing/screwing together three pieces of 12"x12" 3/4 plywood.
I drilled holes in it to hold one vile of powder, one sabot and one bullet. I did this so I would NEVER have more than one powder charge or sabot clad bullet out on my bench at any time. You can not accidentally double load a 209A.
I store (in cool weather) my powder charges, sabots and bullets in a separate large tool box on a separate table behind my shooting bench and only ever bring out one of each at a time, NEVER two. I will openly admit before making and using a 'Loading Block" I have more than once loaded a bullet with no powder in my T/C Encore (THANK GOD for ram rod witness marks), but since I started using a Loading Block I never have had another loading mistake. I thankfully have never double loaded a bullet of powder charge.

Now for my loading procedure:
1>After my rifle has cooled completely and with my rifle held in the V crook of the loading bench and it's recoil pad on a protective pad, I place the powder funnel in the bore and pour in my powder charge, then I raise the rifle +/- 12" and firmly rap it onto the pad 2x to fully settle the powder charge into the back of the chamber onto the face of the breach plug .
2>Then with the rifle in the same location I grip the muzzle end of the rifle, place the sabot clad bullet into the mouth of my bore, align a sabot petal with my land location mark and using my short starter tipped with either a .50 caliber Barnes ML Aligner or Spinjag I start the sabot clad bullet down the bore using great care to keep it as straight as passible and not allow it to cant to one side
3>Once the sabot clad bullet is down far enough, I then use the bore guide to center my short starter rod to ensure I start the sabot/ bullet square in the bore and push the sabot/bullet until my short starter contacts the bore guide.
4>I then use my solid brass T-Handle range rod gain tipped with either a Barnes ML aligner or Spinjag and inert it into the bore until it makes contact with the bullet, then I slide the bore guide into position and seat it into the muzzle to insure the rod is centered to the bore thereby keeping the sabot/bullet centered during the loading process.
5>Now using both hands on the T-handle in one smooth continuous motion finish running the rod down the bore seating the sabot/bullet on top of the powder and instantly after I feel it contact the powder apply as much force as I can consistently for a 1001-1003 count. Be sure to remove the range rod.
6>Place rifle in your bench rest, or rest system and prime the rifle.
7>You are now ready to shoot.

One additional VERY important bit of information that can affect your accuracy is your 10ML-II's replaceable vent liner that screws into your breach plug and the breach plug itself. The breach plug will begin to have carbon build up from shot one and it will continue to build up every additional shot reducing the ID of the flame channel of the breach plug and the opening in the vent liner causing the pressures in your bore to change as well. In my experience carbon build up in your breach plug will usually begin to adversely affect you accuracy somewhere between 30-35 shots, buy YRMV. To clean my breach plug I again use a method I found at Doug's. I Bought a set of high quality drill bits and ground the fronts dead dull flat to avoid damaging my breach plug when I use them to remove the carbon build up. I use to first soak the breach plug in first Big Ed's Red home brew, then Kroil but now in Bore Tec C4 carbon remover usually over night to soften up the rock hard built up carbon I then use my drill bits in a T-Handle tap wrench and using incrementally larger bits remove the built up carbon until I can remove the rest with a phosphorus bronze bore brush. My apologies but I do not recall at this moment the drill sizes as it's been a while since I sized them. If you wish to use this method, the size of drill bits you will need are listed at Doug's.
I use and highly recommend aftermarket vent liners made by Lehigh Bullets sold by Badger Ridge Industries. In my experience they last 3-4x longer than the Savage OEM vent Liners


One last thing about the 10ML-II's breach plug and vent liner. I know there is a possibility of the breach plug seizing in the receiver and the vent liner seizing in the breach plug. Per peoples experiences at Doug's message board, I do not do anything special to my breach plug to prevent it from seizing besides applying a VERY light coating of CLP just prior to screwing it in, all I do is every 10 shots Is loosen the re-tighten the breach plug. This method has worked with no issues what so ever for dozens of all day range sessions and 1000s of shots. As far as the vent liner go's I wrap it in the thinnest Teflon Tape I can find, trim off the excess tape, apply a light coating of CLP, screw it into the Breach plug.


You can remove the breach plug without having to remove the bolt if you have a breach plug that can be removed with a 3/8" socket and socket wrench. The original which I stopped using the INSTANT the B-plug with a 3/8" socket end became available. If you don't have such a plug and plan on buying one be careful when braking it loose for removal with your bolt still in, as if you loose control of the ratchet wrench you can strike you scope.
Here are links to the aftermarket 3/8" breach plugs and Lehigh vent liners:
Savage AM breach plug with 3/8" removal Mod:
Lehigh AM Vent liners:
Badger Ridge Industries also sells a feeler gauge that will tell you if your vent liner's hole has increased in size beyond 0.036" and should be replaced for cheap. You can also use a welding tip cleaner to check vent liner wear if you can find one in the correct size.

As far as recommendations for load development save for the one I listed above but DID NOT recommend, I will not list here any more of the loads I use, as NONE of them are recommended or indorsed by Savage.
As a matter of fact I have NEVER used a powder recommended by Savage.
I feel 100% absolutely confident in the 10ML-II's ability to MORE than safely handle the pressures of my loads, but that is MY decision.

If you want to know the most popular high performance loads/bullet and powder combinations you will find a great many at Doug's.

Well That's it, All the items I suggested you consider buying were exactly that, suggestions only. You can most certainly get by with out them, but I found every one I recommended helped improve the consistency of my accuracy to a degree that more than justified their cost. If I can I always provide links to any items I recommend as I personally hate when people rave about a product but don't provide info where you can look at it and decide if you want to buy it or not.

Best of luck with your 10ML-II, I hope this proves helpful to you.
 
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I shoot the ML II savage. My load is 40gr. of accurate 5744, 45 cal. hornady 250gr HP/XTP, MMP sabot, the best I can do at 100yds is 2 1/2 group and this is on a lead sled, I would really like to get close to an inch if possible, if anybody sees what might be wrong or knows of something that could help it would be appreceiated.
Ditch the sled to start with!
 
Does it have factory barrel if so that may be some my neighbor had one Doug the same thing he had Luke at arrowhead put a new barrel on it
 
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