Should I try a 180 VLD in my 7mm Weatherby, conflicting info.

[TDog78]

Ok, got two guns I am getting ready to work on some loads for with my first being a 30-06 and this one being a 7mm Weatherby mark 5. After much deliberation I would love to tailor a load using the 180 VLD.....I truly believe it has the edge on the 168 for potential problems such as "bullet blow up" etc but my main motivation from all i have read is that it just has spectacular performance in general. Terminal ballistics research lists it as one of the two best for the fast sevens as other sources. I really would like to be large for caliber on my VLD choices.
Here is my issue, I was hoping my seven was a 1 in 9.5 but alas it is a 1-10. Between that and the weatherby freebore I had pretty much written it off until I spoke to a few guys over at berger and used their stability calculator. Regarding freebore and VLD jump they are saying many guys especially when shooting weatherbys are finding the VLD's can in fact handle quite a jump in many cases and maintain fantastic accuracy.
The second part is my twist....I have read about maybe 5 or so guys that have never been able to get the 180 to stabilize in their 1-10 but they were shooting in a little different conditions than I am. According to the Berger stability calculator with my minimum elevation I hunt at being 4500 feet and if I can get 2950 fps out of that pill at 10 degrees it puts my SG/stability number at 1.32 and it only gets better from there from where I typically will use this rifle. I know I will lose a little BC here but I have read a few of Brians articles that state a lot of times 1.1 to 1.4 can work great and around 1.4 can be ideal especially at not making bullet imperfections or issues as pronounced as they would be if they had a lot faster spin and higher SG. As I posted in my 06 build I don't mind tinkering at the bench but don't want to waste money on what is a bad idea to start with. What ya think??? Anyone have or know someone who has made a 1-10 work with these buggers? How many have successfully jumped the VLD's??

 

[jrsolocam]

I guess you will need to shoot them. You might get enough velocity to stabilize them.. You might not. I don't intend to be a smartass, you need to shoot them.

 

[Fishkat]

I shoot the 180 VLD bullets out of my 7 RM touching the lands and they are awesome.

I also shoot VLD's out of a 6.5 Creedmoor at .040 and .070 jump and they work well, so they will handle jump well.

Sorry I can offer anything on the twist, but shooting some will answer that. If they don't work you can sell them off.

 

[cape cove]

Tried the 168 VLD's in my 7mm Wea mag, but didn't have any luck. Tried several powders and different combinations but couldn't get it to work. The berger SC gave me a SG of 1.36. I took this to be part pf the problem. I also have a 1/10 twist.

 

[doverpack12]

TDog PM me how many you would like to try if you want the 180 hunting VLD. I shot them in my 7mm STW last year and felt they let me down on several occasions at least for my expectations of on game performance. Long story short I'm moving on even though they shot excellent. I'll send you some to try out. Leaving for a 10 day bowhunt shortly and not sure I could get them shipped before I leave but I'm more than happy to send you some to try when I get back.

 

[Slick8]

I think you're marginal on the twist but worth a shot.

As far as the jump, I was shooting HSM 140 VLD's in my 280 which were in the .2" range for jump and shooting in the .4's....again, that's factory ammo.

I'm shooting the 115 VLD's in my 240 WBY with a 1:8 which they list as marginal and it's doing great. This is at sea level, 3100 fps and .020 off the lands. She's shooting in the .3's with H1000 and the 115's out to 300 yards. I'll run it out to 600 in the next week or so, the 105's averaged in the .5's at 600 yards.

 

[TDog78]

Tried the 168 VLD's in my 7mm Wea mag, but didn't have any luck. Tried several powders and different combinations but couldn't get it to work. The berger SC gave me a SG of 1.36. I took this to be part pf the problem. I also have a 1/10 twist.

I have read a few of B Litz articles stating that 1.1 SG minimum to give it a whirl but obviously some barrels will spin happy and some won't I guess. I am in about the same boat as you on SG. Heck I even think I read somewhere that someone from Berger said technically 1.4 was ideal!!

 

[cape cove]

I guess the only way to be sure is to try it. One bullet that really works in my 7mm Wea is the Barnes 145 LRX. I use a max load of Norma MRP, Rem 9 1/2M primer and a Wea case. My OAL is 3.370. Accuracy is .75 at 100 yrds and vel is 3327 ft/sec. Great load in my rifle. When I plug the info for this bullet into the Berger calculator I get an SG of 1.27. yet I still get good accuracy. So much for this SG stuff.

 

[SansSouci]

Good Morning, TDog78,

I'm going on caffeine deprived memory alone so it might just be that my remembering needs a cup of strong & black: when gun makers figured out the unlimited abilities of .284 caliber bullets prompted by high velocity, they sold their rifles with barrels with 1:10 twists, probably because .308 caliber rifles used that twist. If it was good for .308 caliber bullets, it had to be good for .284 caliber bullets. It had to have been a really, and I'm talkin' seriously sharp dude to have figured out that .284 caliber bullets had higher proportional sectional densities than .308 caliber bullets necessitating tighter twists for 7MM barrels. Remington went with 1:9. Some gun makes (Sako) have gone with 1:9.5.

What do you plan to hunt?

I own a 24" barreled Sako 7MM Rem Mag with a 9.5 twist.

I've had excellent luck with the once gold standard .284 caliber elk bullet: the 160 grain Partition. I've one-shot-killed a huge, and I'm talkin' massively huge, as in bull moose huge Rocky Mountain bull elk with one 160 grain Partition. It was a through-and-through shot that wreaked havoc on his blood pumping mechanism. BTW, my 160 Partitions are expedited out of my rifle's barrel at better than 3100 FPS using H-4831.

I am of the opinion that diminishing returns meanders throughout bullet manufacturers. I can buy Partitions for about fifty cents a copy. I could buy bullets that cost much more. But a more expensive bullet ain't gonna kill big game any deader than one door nailed by a Partition. It's all about what a bullet destroys, not how much one costs. For mule deer, you'd have to work at finding a bullet that won't work.

Were I to hunt the largest bears, I'd go with a 175 grain Partition. I had conducted a vain attempt at using one of these big boys on a bull elk hunt a few years ago, so I could say I needed the biggest to kill a monster bull. Using mostly RL-22, I've chrono'd a 175 grain Partition leaving the barrel of my Sako at just over 3000 FPS. But then I got to thinking, which I should gotten to before I got to experimenting, that a 175 Partition wasn't gonna kill any deader than the 160 Partitions that have had a proven track record. I still have at least 30 loaded 175 grain Partitions. When I get the notion, I'm gonna pull those bullets and load the brass with something more useful.

If your Mark V -an excellent rifle- has a twist ratio that won't stabilize a 180 grain bullet, the answer is in the question. Rhetorically, do you really need to a 180 grain bullet? How far are you planning out killing big game?

A man's got to know his limitations...or, and man's got to recognize limitations imposed upon him by environmental conditions. I hunt the Rockies exclusively. Under absolutely 100%, dead balls (stole that from Monalisa Vito) perfect, solid rest, not a hint of breeze, bullet assured above sage height, no obstacles between bullet and oxygenating blood making and pumping apparatus, no other animals in front of or behind the antlered one I want to kill conditions, my self-imposed shooting distance is 400 yards. When barometric pressure commences to rapidly decrease, breathing becomes a whole lot more difficult. While I've never tried it, I'm bettin' I could hit a decent sized target 1000 yards yonder with my 7MM Rem Mag if I were sitting on a bench with my rifle supported, and I was not far above sea level. The reality is 200 yards is a far shot where touching stars seems like a possibility.

As an aside, I usually don't tend to screw with what I ain't yet broke. For as long as I can remember, I've used either Sierra GameKing or Nosler bullets. I've also killed deer with bargain basement factory ammo. So far, I ain't experienced bullet failure. I can tell you about operator failure. I ain't sayin' that other bullets ain't better. I'm merely sayin' that there ain't nothin' broken with Sierra or Nosler bullets.

Believe me, just like fishing tackle is made to catch fishermen, I've learned the expensive way that more expensive doesn't always mean more better. For me & me only, I can't never see paying for more an elk/moose bullet than what I pay for 160 grain Partitions.

Oh yeah, I've done pert near forgot: from what I understand, RL-22 and the .270 & 7MM Wby Mags go together like me & Kate Upton 'cept she ain't smart enough to get it...either that or she's not feelin' it...yet! RL-22 is identical to Norma's famed MRP.

Dude, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[cape cove]

I've often read that RE-22 is the same as N MRP, but in the cartridges I've loaded for I find that this isn't the case. In fact i've found them to be about as close as imr4831 and H 4831. In my 7mm Wea with 175 gr Hornady RE 22 maxes out at 70 grs while MRP goes to 73grs. Vel for re-22 is 2991 while MRP get me 3157 ft/sec. Accuracy is also much better with MRP. These are just my findings.

 

[dsculley]

I jump the 168's .070 in my 7mm RemMag. I jump the 140's .060 in my 6.5x47.

I have seen posts from those who jump the VLD's .120 to .130 with good results. You will have to test and see how much jump your rifle will tolerate.

FWIW,

 

[barefooter56]

Ok, got two guns I am getting ready to work on some loads for with my first being a 30-06 and this one being a 7mm Weatherby mark 5. After much deliberation I would love to tailor a load using the 180 VLD.....I truly believe it has the edge on the 168 for potential problems such as "bullet blow up" etc but my main motivation from all i have read is that it just has spectacular performance in general. Terminal ballistics research lists it as one of the two best for the fast sevens as other sources. I really would like to be large for caliber on my VLD choices.
Here is my issue, I was hoping my seven was a 1 in 9.5 but alas it is a 1-10. Between that and the weatherby freebore I had pretty much written it off until I spoke to a few guys over at berger and used their stability calculator. Regarding freebore and VLD jump they are saying many guys especially when shooting weatherbys are finding the VLD's can in fact handle quite a jump in many cases and maintain fantastic accuracy.
The second part is my twist....I have read about maybe 5 or so guys that have never been able to get the 180 to stabilize in their 1-10 but they were shooting in a little different conditions than I am. According to the Berger stability calculator with my minimum elevation I hunt at being 4500 feet and if I can get 2950 fps out of that pill at 10 degrees it puts my SG/stability number at 1.32 and it only gets better from there from where I typically will use this rifle. I know I will lose a little BC here but I have read a few of Brians articles that state a lot of times 1.1 to 1.4 can work great and around 1.4 can be ideal especially at not making bullet imperfections or issues as pronounced as they would be if they had a lot faster spin and higher SG. As I posted in my 06 build I don't mind tinkering at the bench but don't want to waste money on what is a bad idea to start with. What ya think??? Anyone have or know someone who has made a 1-10 work with these buggers? How many have successfully jumped the VLD's??

Tdog78,
Run your data on our TWIST RATE CALCULATOR here:Twist RAte Stability Calculator Updated | Berger Bullets Blog
And how you interpret your results here:Berger Bullets Twist Rate Recommendations by Eric Stecker & Bryan Litz | Berger Bullets
And BERGER VLD seating depth information HERE: Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD Bullets in Your Rifle | Berger Bullets Blog
Any bullet seating depth testing should be done at the lowest powder charge listed for the bullet/powder/cartridge combination you are testing.
You can jump a VLD bullet. You just have to do a little more load testing. If you have any questions please feel free to contact us at any time here or at [email protected]

 

[TDog78]

Thank you all very much for all of the thorough responses....lot of good info here!!!

 

[jimwheeler]

I tried for a long time to make the 180 vld's or 180 hybrids work in my mark v. They never did. Then I had it rebarreled with a 1-9 twist and the 180 hybrids shot good. This is a 24 inch barrel with the same amount of freebore as a Weatherby barrel. I'm using MRP and the velocity is around 3040. These bullets have worked good on everything I've used them on so far.