Ridge Runner
Well-Known Member
I'll kick in the loads that work well in my STW
rem brass/fed. 215/160 accubond/95 gr WC 872 3340 fps
rem brass/fed. 215/162 A-max/ 81 gr H-1000 3170 fps
RR
Severely Overbore Chartidges and short barrel life myths...
- Thread starter Fiftydriver
- Start date
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I'll kick in the loads that work well in my STW
rem brass/fed. 215/160 accubond/95 gr WC 872 3340 fps
rem brass/fed. 215/162 A-max/ 81 gr H-1000 3170 fps
RR
340Shooter
Well-Known Member
SBruce
Well-Known Member
Finally got enough time to read the entire thread. Great Read!!
Glad someone else (besides myself) has shed some more light on long barrel life.
When I tell people that I shot nearly 5000 rounds through a 220 Swift before I had to re barrel....................you can imagine the looks I get.
When it stopped shooting "minute of prarie dog" at 300 yds, I took it too the gunsmith. We looked through it with the Bore Scope and rifling was totally gone for the first 1 1/2 inches. Heat cracking/checking existed for the following 8 inches or more.
The rifle was built by Ruger in the early 70's. I shot quite a few different loads through it during it's lifetime. I always cleaned it very very well (making sure to remove all the copper fouling) and never let it get so hot that I couldn't touch it (I admit though, sometimes the barrel got pretty warm in the prarie dog towns)
About 1/2 way through it's life (round count) It was still shooting 1" 3-shot groups at 300yds with my pet load on days with good conditions. I know this sounds pretty far fetched to alot of folks, but I am telling the absolute truth!!
I am currently getting the model 77 action rebarreled.
Tight neck 6 Long Dasher (6X47 Lapua Ackley) and am keeping my fingers crossed, hoping it will shoot as good (hopefully even better) as my old Swift did.
Also looking forward very much to recieving the 300WSM that Kirby is building for me on a Borden action.
Glad someone else (besides myself) has shed some more light on long barrel life.
When I tell people that I shot nearly 5000 rounds through a 220 Swift before I had to re barrel....................you can imagine the looks I get.
When it stopped shooting "minute of prarie dog" at 300 yds, I took it too the gunsmith. We looked through it with the Bore Scope and rifling was totally gone for the first 1 1/2 inches. Heat cracking/checking existed for the following 8 inches or more.
The rifle was built by Ruger in the early 70's. I shot quite a few different loads through it during it's lifetime. I always cleaned it very very well (making sure to remove all the copper fouling) and never let it get so hot that I couldn't touch it (I admit though, sometimes the barrel got pretty warm in the prarie dog towns)
About 1/2 way through it's life (round count) It was still shooting 1" 3-shot groups at 300yds with my pet load on days with good conditions. I know this sounds pretty far fetched to alot of folks, but I am telling the absolute truth!!
I am currently getting the model 77 action rebarreled.
Tight neck 6 Long Dasher (6X47 Lapua Ackley) and am keeping my fingers crossed, hoping it will shoot as good (hopefully even better) as my old Swift did.
Also looking forward very much to recieving the 300WSM that Kirby is building for me on a Borden action.
justgoto
Well-Known Member
My US Model of 1917 Eddystone shoots .75moa, and it has a naked eye visibly eroded barrel.
pyroducksx3
Well-Known Member
Kirby thank you for your reply on the process you use to reload. This method seems much more practical to me than others I have heard and tried. I also seem to agree with reply you had about using the scope reticle for hold over. The reasons you outlined were exactaly why I want to get a ffp scope. The more knowledge you share the more I find that I prefer your style / system of longrange shooting. Thank you again
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Pyroducksx3,
With the wildcats that I designed and use, it is important to get through the load development stage as quickly as possible. When I started doing load development for my first three Allen Magnums, the 257, 6.5mm and 270, I did the whole in depth load development thing. I have 6 barrels sitting on the rack to prove it, all with the throats burnt up in less then 500 rounds each simply because of paper punching and tinkeritis trying to find that magic load.
As such, I had to develop a faster method so that is how I came up with my simplistic method of load development. The theory is that most rifles will perform most consistantly at or very near top working pressures. When dealing with very extreme performance chamberings, this is nearly always the case and it is generally also where these chamberings perform the CLEANEST at as far as powder burning. You put 95 grains of ball powder behind a 25 cal bullet, you want it to burn as clean as possible.
That said I do not endorse over loading any chambering and infact, most of my customers that do develop their own loads for rifles chambered in my wildcats often load them to significantly higher pressures and velocites then I do. I have always been a bit on the conservative side when working with these very low expansion ratio wildcats.
because they like upper pressure loads, it became clear to simply shoot over a chrono and let the rifle tell you when your at max working loads instead of trying to figure out if that group is actually a virbation node or if its chance or what. I used to use the ladder test and in all honesty, unless you have an EXCEPTIONALLY accurate rifle that is that way day in and day out, it really means nothing. Now before those out there that sware by the Ladder test method reach through their computers to choke me, let me explain my comment and ask that you honestly consider what I have to say.
To those that have tested their rifles and developed a load using one of the ladder test methods, how many of you have taken your rifles out on several different days and performed the same ladder test and HONESTLY gotten repeatable results with those tests.
I have done ladder tests over and over to test this theory and to be bunt, they are seldom if EVER consistant from day to day even with the same load. At least not consistant enough to say that you can pick one load that will be THE most consistant day in and day out.
This becomes even more true as the intensity and performance level of the chambering being tested increases. Take a 6mm BR and sure you will have a much better chance at finding a consistant pattern, take a 7mm AM and I would say good luck. But even with the 6mm BR, take your testing out over several days repeating the test and you will most likely see inconsistancies from day to day.
Also, add to that us humans and that totally complicates the test proceedure of the ladder test. Rifles really need to be in the 1/4 moa class consistantly to be able to give any meaningful, repeatable ladder test data. On top of that, the shooter must be capable of perfect, consistant shooting for all the shots fired during the test. One flinch and your trying to decide if your looking at THE load or a flinch.....
To my way of thinking, 1/2 moa is great for groups, smaller the better but VASTLY more important to long range shooting and hunting is the ability for a shooter/hunter and rifle/load combo to put that first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of impact at any range you decide to shoot out to.
Now many will say, "do you realize your talking about a 1 moa diameter group if your goal is to put your first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of aim?"
I certainly do, and if most would honestly evaluate their shooting ability and their rifle capability in field conditons, most would admit that putting your first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of aim is PRETTY **** GOOD and MORE then enough for any big game hunting even out to 1000 yards. In most cases, if your point of impact is 1/2 moa off of your point of aim, even out to 1000 yards, you will never know you were off because you will still easily harvest your animal.
Consider this, a whitetail buck at 880 yards. Using my 1/2 moa of point of aim rule give you an 8.8" diameter impact zone. IF you hold properly on a whitetails front shoulder, you will have MORE then enough room to get well inside the vital zone of this big game animal.
Of course the best accuracy you can get is always better but in reality, a 1/4 moa rifle on the bench will likely be a 1/2 to 3/4 moa or even 1 moa rifle in the field so why waste your barrel life trying to get that magical 1/4 moa load when 1/2 moa and often times a 3/4 moa rifle will perform just as well in real world hunting conditions.
This comes back to the same discussion about using ballistic holdover compared to dialing up for each shot. Certainly, if you plug in the exact data correctly for your shooting conditions, dialing up for each shot will be more accurate, but how much more. How much of that data that we log into our handhelds is an educated guess??? How much error is there in our shots from that compared to the error in using a ballistic reticle.
Now for extreme range hunting, past 880 yards and certainly past 1000 yards, dialing up is recommended but for big game hunting out to 1/2 mile. IF your rifle and drop chart are set up for say 4000 ft elevation and a nominal bar pressure and say 40 degrees air temp and 30% humidy, you could cover probably 90% of all hunting in north America with a single drop charting using the reticle for hold over shooting out to 1/2 mile ranges and never know your drop chart was off because of changes in the environment your shooting in.
Again, could you tell the difference between a 1/4 moa rifle and a 3/4 moa rifle on the bench when you take those same rifles out in the field????? I probably could not most days.
Just the thought process I have come up with over the years playing with these extreme chamberings and getting them set up to hunt with with as few rounds down the barrel as possible.
Certainly not set in stone, certainly not the only way to get things done. Just my way and it works as do MANY other methods. Just differnet roads to get to the same place is all.
With the wildcats that I designed and use, it is important to get through the load development stage as quickly as possible. When I started doing load development for my first three Allen Magnums, the 257, 6.5mm and 270, I did the whole in depth load development thing. I have 6 barrels sitting on the rack to prove it, all with the throats burnt up in less then 500 rounds each simply because of paper punching and tinkeritis trying to find that magic load.
As such, I had to develop a faster method so that is how I came up with my simplistic method of load development. The theory is that most rifles will perform most consistantly at or very near top working pressures. When dealing with very extreme performance chamberings, this is nearly always the case and it is generally also where these chamberings perform the CLEANEST at as far as powder burning. You put 95 grains of ball powder behind a 25 cal bullet, you want it to burn as clean as possible.
That said I do not endorse over loading any chambering and infact, most of my customers that do develop their own loads for rifles chambered in my wildcats often load them to significantly higher pressures and velocites then I do. I have always been a bit on the conservative side when working with these very low expansion ratio wildcats.
because they like upper pressure loads, it became clear to simply shoot over a chrono and let the rifle tell you when your at max working loads instead of trying to figure out if that group is actually a virbation node or if its chance or what. I used to use the ladder test and in all honesty, unless you have an EXCEPTIONALLY accurate rifle that is that way day in and day out, it really means nothing. Now before those out there that sware by the Ladder test method reach through their computers to choke me, let me explain my comment and ask that you honestly consider what I have to say.
To those that have tested their rifles and developed a load using one of the ladder test methods, how many of you have taken your rifles out on several different days and performed the same ladder test and HONESTLY gotten repeatable results with those tests.
I have done ladder tests over and over to test this theory and to be bunt, they are seldom if EVER consistant from day to day even with the same load. At least not consistant enough to say that you can pick one load that will be THE most consistant day in and day out.
This becomes even more true as the intensity and performance level of the chambering being tested increases. Take a 6mm BR and sure you will have a much better chance at finding a consistant pattern, take a 7mm AM and I would say good luck. But even with the 6mm BR, take your testing out over several days repeating the test and you will most likely see inconsistancies from day to day.
Also, add to that us humans and that totally complicates the test proceedure of the ladder test. Rifles really need to be in the 1/4 moa class consistantly to be able to give any meaningful, repeatable ladder test data. On top of that, the shooter must be capable of perfect, consistant shooting for all the shots fired during the test. One flinch and your trying to decide if your looking at THE load or a flinch.....
To my way of thinking, 1/2 moa is great for groups, smaller the better but VASTLY more important to long range shooting and hunting is the ability for a shooter/hunter and rifle/load combo to put that first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of impact at any range you decide to shoot out to.
Now many will say, "do you realize your talking about a 1 moa diameter group if your goal is to put your first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of aim?"
I certainly do, and if most would honestly evaluate their shooting ability and their rifle capability in field conditons, most would admit that putting your first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of aim is PRETTY **** GOOD and MORE then enough for any big game hunting even out to 1000 yards. In most cases, if your point of impact is 1/2 moa off of your point of aim, even out to 1000 yards, you will never know you were off because you will still easily harvest your animal.
Consider this, a whitetail buck at 880 yards. Using my 1/2 moa of point of aim rule give you an 8.8" diameter impact zone. IF you hold properly on a whitetails front shoulder, you will have MORE then enough room to get well inside the vital zone of this big game animal.
Of course the best accuracy you can get is always better but in reality, a 1/4 moa rifle on the bench will likely be a 1/2 to 3/4 moa or even 1 moa rifle in the field so why waste your barrel life trying to get that magical 1/4 moa load when 1/2 moa and often times a 3/4 moa rifle will perform just as well in real world hunting conditions.
This comes back to the same discussion about using ballistic holdover compared to dialing up for each shot. Certainly, if you plug in the exact data correctly for your shooting conditions, dialing up for each shot will be more accurate, but how much more. How much of that data that we log into our handhelds is an educated guess??? How much error is there in our shots from that compared to the error in using a ballistic reticle.
Now for extreme range hunting, past 880 yards and certainly past 1000 yards, dialing up is recommended but for big game hunting out to 1/2 mile. IF your rifle and drop chart are set up for say 4000 ft elevation and a nominal bar pressure and say 40 degrees air temp and 30% humidy, you could cover probably 90% of all hunting in north America with a single drop charting using the reticle for hold over shooting out to 1/2 mile ranges and never know your drop chart was off because of changes in the environment your shooting in.
Again, could you tell the difference between a 1/4 moa rifle and a 3/4 moa rifle on the bench when you take those same rifles out in the field????? I probably could not most days.
Just the thought process I have come up with over the years playing with these extreme chamberings and getting them set up to hunt with with as few rounds down the barrel as possible.
Certainly not set in stone, certainly not the only way to get things done. Just my way and it works as do MANY other methods. Just differnet roads to get to the same place is all.
B23
Well-Known Member
Kirby, great read as always. Even if someone were to disagree, there is no denying the logic, that's for sure.
But, I have one simple question. What in gods name are you still doing up that late writing this stuff??? When I do things like that my wife tells me "your a sick, sick, man". lol And I always respond to her with the same answer. There's alot worse habits out there.....
But, I have one simple question. What in gods name are you still doing up that late writing this stuff??? When I do things like that my wife tells me "your a sick, sick, man". lol And I always respond to her with the same answer. There's alot worse habits out there.....
SHRTSHTR
Well-Known Member
This thread has been an interesting read. Over the last couple of months I have been doing fireforming and load development on my 338 Lapua Improved.
I pretty much used the OCW method for my load development. I found that 102gns of Retumbo gave me a slightly hard bolt lift and ejector marks. 101.5gns Retumbo and I was still getting ejector marks.
I worked down from the above numbers and found my accuracy load right at 100gn Retumbo. My velocity is 2,940 fps with a 300gn SMK.
If I understand this right, this is exactly what Kirby has indicated works for him. Only difference is I have 265 rounds down the tube in a couple months! A lot of this was fireforming and shooting at distance.
I plan on trying Kirby's method on my 30-338 Lapua Improved build. Thanks Kirby.
I pretty much used the OCW method for my load development. I found that 102gns of Retumbo gave me a slightly hard bolt lift and ejector marks. 101.5gns Retumbo and I was still getting ejector marks.
I worked down from the above numbers and found my accuracy load right at 100gn Retumbo. My velocity is 2,940 fps with a 300gn SMK.
If I understand this right, this is exactly what Kirby has indicated works for him. Only difference is I have 265 rounds down the tube in a couple months! A lot of this was fireforming and shooting at distance.
I plan on trying Kirby's method on my 30-338 Lapua Improved build. Thanks Kirby.
Elkslayer1
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2010
- Messages
- 68
Kirby, great post and lots of information for us beginners. I can see that I have already shot more rounds than needed in finding my "perfect" round.
I really like your thoughts on finding the proper load with 6 to 8 shots....makes alot of sense.
Can you tell me what OAL you start out with on your rounds development? Do you say start with .001 away from the lands and going in, out or both?
It seems that the only guns that I have that shoot under 1 MOA with a standard COAL length are my WSM's. My 7MM Rem Mag seems to like my 160 accubonds almost right on the lands.....I keep moving them closer but I am only shooting at 200 yards and looking for groups. What range do you shoot in looking for OAL changes?
Thanks,
I really like your thoughts on finding the proper load with 6 to 8 shots....makes alot of sense.
Can you tell me what OAL you start out with on your rounds development? Do you say start with .001 away from the lands and going in, out or both?
It seems that the only guns that I have that shoot under 1 MOA with a standard COAL length are my WSM's. My 7MM Rem Mag seems to like my 160 accubonds almost right on the lands.....I keep moving them closer but I am only shooting at 200 yards and looking for groups. What range do you shoot in looking for OAL changes?
Thanks,
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
B23,
Well, from the 4th of July holiday weekend until the middle of October I an in FULL SPEED mode or should I say, lots of hours mode. Spend about 2-3 hours more a day in the shop, work 7 days a week and as such, I have to reply to e-mails at night to stay caught up. About 2 hours worth of e-mails a day. Sometimes I can get to them early in the morning, sometimes a bit on lunch break but most of the time after I spend a couple hours with my wife and little girl and they go to bed, Dad stays up and sits on the computer replying to e-mails and PMs
To be honest, I was getting a bit burned out on e-mails so I clicked over here and posted some replies just to freshen me up!!
Well, from the 4th of July holiday weekend until the middle of October I an in FULL SPEED mode or should I say, lots of hours mode. Spend about 2-3 hours more a day in the shop, work 7 days a week and as such, I have to reply to e-mails at night to stay caught up. About 2 hours worth of e-mails a day. Sometimes I can get to them early in the morning, sometimes a bit on lunch break but most of the time after I spend a couple hours with my wife and little girl and they go to bed, Dad stays up and sits on the computer replying to e-mails and PMs
To be honest, I was getting a bit burned out on e-mails so I clicked over here and posted some replies just to freshen me up!!
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
SHRTSHRT,
I would have started at 94.0 gr and increased powder charge by one grain at a time until I hit your stopping point at 102 grains and then dropped back to 100.0 gr with the 300 gr SMK.
Interestingly enough, my exact load for my 338 Allen Xpress is 100.0 gr which gets me an average of 2960 fps!!! Nearly identical to your load, only difference likely is barrel variations is all.
I would have started at 94.0 gr and increased powder charge by one grain at a time until I hit your stopping point at 102 grains and then dropped back to 100.0 gr with the 300 gr SMK.
Interestingly enough, my exact load for my 338 Allen Xpress is 100.0 gr which gets me an average of 2960 fps!!! Nearly identical to your load, only difference likely is barrel variations is all.
Elkslayer1
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2010
- Messages
- 68
Hi Kirby,
Could you respoond to my post #38?
Thanks and have a good day!
Could you respoond to my post #38?
Thanks and have a good day!
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Elkslayer1,
I always start at 10-15 thou off the lands and then test for accuracy at a min of 500 yards in good conditions and them I am looking for mostly vertical stringing more then anything.
The farther you can test the better. Now if you never plan on shooting past 500 yards, 200-300 is plenty to test but if you have a rifle set up for 1000 yard shooting get to 500 or even farther.
If possible, have an experienced spotter or better yet a video camera so you can video the impact and watch them later. What will often appear to be a dead center hit through the scope will often me much different when you watch it on video.
I always start at 10-15 thou off the lands and then test for accuracy at a min of 500 yards in good conditions and them I am looking for mostly vertical stringing more then anything.
The farther you can test the better. Now if you never plan on shooting past 500 yards, 200-300 is plenty to test but if you have a rifle set up for 1000 yard shooting get to 500 or even farther.
If possible, have an experienced spotter or better yet a video camera so you can video the impact and watch them later. What will often appear to be a dead center hit through the scope will often me much different when you watch it on video.
