Scope failed tall target test....🤬
- Thread starter DocGlenn
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TRyan
Well-Known Member
Yes, so there may be more than one problem here, but there also may not.
I was adjusting one of my LR rifles today for cant (i.e., making sure my reticle was pointing at the center of my bore). The ONLY way to get it exact is the Tall Target test. However, Doc, if your impacts were to the left of your plumb-line when you cranked up then turning your scope counter-clockwise made the shift WORSE. That is because when you crank up it is the same as using the lower part of your reticle.
I'm guessing your wrong-way "corrections" were the reason your shift was not gradual.
Today I got sighted in at 100 yds, plumbed my bullseyes and shot the bottom one. They I cranked up 25 moa and shot the same POA again, making sure my reticle stayed aligned with the plumbed bullseyes. I hit a couple of inches to the left, so I rotated my scope c-clockwise, and made it worse, just as you did. Opps. Then I rotated clockwise, got this and called it good. I'm still 1/4" off but I'll fix it some other time, as 1/4" will only be 2-1/2" off at 1,000 yds.
Being 2" off-line at 100 yds, which is not nearly as bad as many I have seen, means you are 20" off at 1,000 yds. Not at all acceptable to me.
The clown that runs SH tried to tell me the other day that it isn't important that your reticle be aligned perfectly with your bore. Right, if you don't mind being a foot or more off to the left or right when you crank up and shoot at long distance! They call themselves "precision" shooters but what they really are is "shoot, see where you hit and correct" shooters. Then the idiot told me having a level on your rifle is unnecessary.
The convenience store must miss him badly.
So Frank Galli is an idiot and a clown and none of the Snipers Hide members are as qualified at precision ELR shooting as you are? Are you serious?
You may disagree with things he says, but there's no need for you to come on here and start bashing on the guy with name calling and stereotyping every person on that forum. He's one of the "Godfathers" in the shooting community and deserves some respect. What an ignorant comment.
KY_Windage
Well-Known Member
Yup as to Frank as anyone else who says it isn't important to LR shooting to have your reticle in alignment with the bore, because there is no reason to not make your reticle align with the bore. Ditto for eschewing levels on rifles. Misalignment forces you to keep windage dope for every distance, in addition to elevation dope. Shooting with your rifle out of level will make you miss or merely wound that 600-yd elk. This is, after all, a long range hunting forum.
dfanonymous
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Ok so how does it matter if the reticle is aligned with gravity vs the bore/receiver? The bullet is coming straight out of the muzzle either way.
You don't NEED a bubble level, just as you don't need a break or a 10 oz trigger. These are crutches for lack in fundamentals or for the last shooter, or the shooter who sole education on LR is on the internet. You can tell if your rifle is canted in general and if you're consistent in building you shooting position and obtaining natural point of aim, you will have consistency. It wasn't until fairly recently that snipers started getting bubbles and honestly, it's still not an across the board thing.
I also dont know what you mean about keeping windage dope...a smart shooter should be doing that anyways...
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
You may not realize it but snipers are world class shooters. Most of us have to really work at what we accomplish. That means using what ever aids are available.
He wouldn't listen to frank, so he won't listen to us. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Frank has the numbers and offsets and everything. I saw this but that's why I didn't react.
Most actually aren't. Sniping is only about 15% shooting the rest is recon and scouting.
KY_Windage
Well-Known Member
I don't listen to anyone or anything . . . except the results on the targets. If you want to see what difference reticle misalignment makes, do the tall target test described above. I would say the average amount that people who never do the test are off is 2" - 3" when they dial up 25 moa at 100 yards. That means they are off 20" - 30" at 1,000 yards (assuming their dial-up for 1,000 is 25 moa).
That is with people who were trying to put their scope on straight, by eyeballing but not doing the test. Frank tells people to not even bother to make your reticle align with your bore, and to instead twist the rifle to where it "feels good" in your shoulder and then level the scope to the earth. People who do that will often be off more than 3" at 100 yards. Excuse me but that is an idiotic way to shoot.
It usually takes me less than half an hour to do a tall target test and correct the error out. Then that rifle/scope is good forever, as long as you don't loosen the ring screws. I can dial up for any distance I want to shoot at and, on a calm-air day, not have my windage be off. That beats the heck out of having to carry around windage corrections to correspond to every different elevation correction ("dual dope").
Now, the canting issue. As a great LR shooter once told me, without a level (or other visual reference, such as target frame that is known to be plumb) everyone cants their rifle. They think they don't, but they do, and anyone who puts a level on their rifle quickly finds out that what they thought was level was in many cases not even close. That is especially true when shooting on uneven ground off an improvised rest, as hunters often have to do.
After you have gotten your reticle aligned with your bore, then do an experiment -- cant your rifle 10 degrees to the right, then shoot the tall target test again. You will immediately see that error also puts your windage off by 2" - 3" at just 100 yards. Cant 10 degrees to the left and you will be off in that direction by an equal amount. The person who shoots with a misaligned reticle and no level might get lucky and have the two errors offset each other at times, but he might also have them stack, so that he is off 4" - 6" at 100 yards, meaning he will be off 40" - 60" inches at 1,000 yards. And that is with a "consistent shooting position and natural point of aim."
Having their windage off when they dial up does not matter to people shooting games where they can shoot a few sighters, correct and be good to go. It matters greatly to hunters and snipers, who typically are going to get one good shot, and then have a moving target, at best, after that. Sure, you can carry "dual dope" around with you, but delay in getting off your shot often matters to hunters and snipers. Having to dial two turrets to make a LR shot takes twice as long as dialing one.
My level weighs hardly anything and folds out of the way when I am not using it. I don't have to use it, and probably won't for anything inside 300 yards. But if I have time, I am certainly going to use it for any serious LR shot I take.
And anyone who tells you that you don't "need" a level to shoot LR hunting or sniping is either ignorant or a fool -- and I don't care how many suckers are paying them to teach them to shoot LR.
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I was going to add that then in the post I figured some would object lol
villagelightsmith
Well-Known Member
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They seem to be making fuzzier targets than they did 60 years ago.
Gravity has become stronger and has taken to shifting without warning.
Gravity has become stronger and has taken to shifting without warning.
Why lap them if your going to bed them anyway? Those lapping bars are not going to be the exact same size as your scope tube as every tube of every manufacturer may be slightly different. Im just curious here because I got my advice from Ryan Pierce and he only beds the rings and doesn't lap.
DMP25-06
Well-Known Member
You guys do realize that DocGlenn , the member that started this thread on June 20th , started another thread titled " Answer to "Scope Failed Tall Target Test" , on June 24th , in which he stated that he had found the cause for the Tall Target Test failure , and he stated that his suppressor on his rifle has a loose baffle plate inside the suppressor body that the bullets are contacting when shot .
Why he did not post that information on this thread , his initial posting , to end this thread can only be answered by him .
I am done following this thread .
DMP25-06
Why he did not post that information on this thread , his initial posting , to end this thread can only be answered by him .
I am done following this thread .
DMP25-06
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
Privi457
Well-Known Member
Getting back to how to fix it.
If you sight in on a windless day at the farthest range you plan to shoot, any minor cant will not matter as the deviation will shrink as you move closer.
Funny how the Germans/Austrians solved leveling the scope ages ago by putting a male rail on the scope bottom with a dead level female dovetail on the receiver.
If you sight in on a windless day at the farthest range you plan to shoot, any minor cant will not matter as the deviation will shrink as you move closer.
Funny how the Germans/Austrians solved leveling the scope ages ago by putting a male rail on the scope bottom with a dead level female dovetail on the receiver.
