I've owned Zeiss, Leupold, sighton, Three Nikon FX1000, etc. Is there and advantage with a S&B over a high end Japan Light Optical Works made scope. Comparing to something like a Japanese L.O.W. ( razor, Cronus , or L.O.W. Bushnell etc...)
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MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
IMO, there is no advantage, other than to tell people you own a $3,000 scope. Plus, if you look through a modern S&B, they are now using some yellow lens coating and everything looks yellow tinted... Not an attractive quality, IMO...Looks like you're looking through a 1980's Tasco, at 300x the price tag.
Jr1972
Well-Known Member
The best glass there is. Whether it's worth the cost over other high-end optics depends on the individual.
It's not just the glass. It's the reliability of the turrets and dialing.
The PMII doesn't give anything up to any other scopes, perhaps with the exception of the Tangent Theta or Hensoldt.
The PMII doesn't give anything up to any other scopes, perhaps with the exception of the Tangent Theta or Hensoldt.
I didn't really ask the initial question to try to compare any thing that I have owned to an S&B because I don't think anything I've had is a good comparison to an S&B. But just trying to figure out what I would be getting over a L.O.W. made scope. I figured the S&B would be a gold standard in tracking. Should be top notch glass as well. My guess is that your paying for undisputed tracking under harsh duty & hopefully some or the best glass available. For the price it should be good for a lifetime or two of flawless tracking & reliability. For my purposes as of now, I think that I can go a different route.
gpo1956
Well-Known Member
Like looking through a 1980's Tasco?!!!! Wow. I'm speechless after that one. You need to look at the entire package as some of the others have said. Tracking and turret feel and quality outstanding and the glass is still some of the best out there. The Razor HD is a very nice scope, but is stupid heavy and is not in the same league as the S&B. I'd spend $3000 for the S&B before I paid $2400 for the Razor HD. But, I would also buy a Bushnell Elite Tactical for less money than the Vortex. Unless you're very interested in optics or are a very serious long range shooter, then it's probably not going to be worth it to you. But yes, the S&B, the Hensoldt and Tangent Thetas are, as far as I'm concerned, are worth the extra money.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
I used to sell them... I've looked through them thousands of times, spun the turrets, shot through them at the range, sighted them in for people. Along with Swarovski, Karl Zeiss, Hensoldt, Kahles, NF, and all the other top-tier brands of the early 2000's. They're good scopes, same with Swarovski, but IMO, a Zeiss or Kahles is just as good for half the price. Granted, back then, the S&B's didn't have that weird yellow tinting on the lenses, but the ones I looked through about 5 years ago looked horrific, and someone informed me it was something new they were trying...Not a fan. I wouldn't have given them $1K for it...They had 6 of them sitting there like that at the "discount price" of $2,800.
I'm well aware that S&B only has to offer 20 year old technology in new packages. Reliability might be incredible, they might be super rugged and tough, and tracking might remain true, but so will other scopes today, for a fraction of the cost. Technology has surpassed price tag these days with just about everything.The OP asked opinions...I gave mine. Take it or leave it, put as much stock into it as you wish, but in the end, it's still just another person's opinion, worth just as much or as little as everyone else's.
I've never handled an S&B. I guess I will pass on them for now. I remember when IOR Scopes were talked well of but I don't hear much about them anymore, not any feedback to support them anyway. I used to think that Leupold was king of tracking and at one time they probably were. I've had Leupold and it's possible that I would try another if the price was to hard to pass up. Sure seems funny how Leupold used to be king among blue collar guys, then came sightron, nightforce, vortex, etc... I'm not bashing Leupold by any means. Today it just doesn't seem they are where they were in the game 20 years ago.
The short answer is yes, and there's quite a few members here that owns them with real world experiences that can attest for their worth. For now, it is on my wish lish unless I win the lotto sooner.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
I have some nice high-end expensive scopes (Zeiss, Kahles, etc...) on my hunting rifles, but I'll tell you right now, for targets and rifles that rarely-to-never see any hunting condition, I love Vortex HST and SWFA SS scopes. For the money, they're ****-hard to beat. They track true, the glass is exceptional for the price-point, they're tough (the SWFA is literally built like an M1 Abrams), they have good turrets, smooth and clear magnification with increase and decrease, side-adjustable parallax, excellent reticle options in both MRAD and MOA, the list goes on...
lancetkenyon
Well-Known Member
I have had most of the mid/top tier glass.
To me, the S&B PMII line is FAR superior in glass quality to any Japanese glass I have shot behind/owned. And other Euro glass too. Razor Gen 2, Razor Gen 1, March, SWFA HD, Bushnell Elite, Sig, Sightron, Steiner TX, Razor AMG (USA), NF ATACR F1 (although these are very very good), Kahles, Cronos BTR, Leupold Mark 4/VX-5HD/VX6HD.
I own three S&Bs. 5-25×56 DT, 3-20×50 MTC/LT, 3-20×50 US. No yellow tint I have noticed. I have sold all of my Japanese glass (except my March on a lightweight hunting rifle) for S&B PMII, Premier, or Tangent Theta upgrades.
Does everyone NEED a (or multiple) $2500-4000 scope? Ha! Absolutely not! But shooting is my vice. Hunting is my passion. That is why my personal rifles are topped with the best. Because when that shot on a game animal of a lifetime in the worst possible conditions presents itself, I want the best chance I have of making that shot count. And being able to see them is an important part of that.
To me, the S&B PMII line is FAR superior in glass quality to any Japanese glass I have shot behind/owned. And other Euro glass too. Razor Gen 2, Razor Gen 1, March, SWFA HD, Bushnell Elite, Sig, Sightron, Steiner TX, Razor AMG (USA), NF ATACR F1 (although these are very very good), Kahles, Cronos BTR, Leupold Mark 4/VX-5HD/VX6HD.
I own three S&Bs. 5-25×56 DT, 3-20×50 MTC/LT, 3-20×50 US. No yellow tint I have noticed. I have sold all of my Japanese glass (except my March on a lightweight hunting rifle) for S&B PMII, Premier, or Tangent Theta upgrades.
Does everyone NEED a (or multiple) $2500-4000 scope? Ha! Absolutely not! But shooting is my vice. Hunting is my passion. That is why my personal rifles are topped with the best. Because when that shot on a game animal of a lifetime in the worst possible conditions presents itself, I want the best chance I have of making that shot count. And being able to see them is an important part of that.
I have a couple of IOR Valdada (4-14x50 30MM and 3-18x42 35 MM, both illuminated in the ~$1600-$2000 range) that are very good, optical clarity and trackability are awesome but are heavy. Their Crusader and Recon G2s are also in my wish list.
It is always nice to have plenty of choices to choose from. Cheers!
dfanonymous
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S&B do have advantages. Maybe just not what people on this forum consider it to be. Specifically the pm2. For a 34mm tube, one of my beefs is that it only gets about 26 mils of travel in elevation. However the majority I've seen, and mine are within .1% tracking error.
You could have the best glass in the world and it won't matter if mechanically your turrets are unreliable. Thing weights two pounds, it can take a beating and still work, best part is I've never ran into a pm2 that moved poi maxing out elevation or magnification.
Glass is arguable. There's other good stuff out there, the pm2 usually works good in low light settings, by work well, I mean well, with its ability to define blue spectrum. It's still top tier.
Question is, who thinks $3000 is worth it? Some do, some don't.
I used to hear salesmen in gun shops say this all the time " you need to spend twice as much on your scope as you do on your rifle". It must have been a universal statement among gun shop salesmen. So a guy I worked with done just that. He bought a $1200 Browning eclipse & $2400 nightforce (nothing against night force, I think they are great). It bearly managed 1.5 moa. It was almost hillarious cause it was like he thought the nightforce should have made his gun shoot 1/2 moa. I had a $800 rifle shooting 1/2 moa with a $700 Leupold. Granted, he had a heck of a lot better scope than I did but I hooked up at greater distances than he did on game. This was 15-20 years ago or so. And I really was never impressed with the glass on that Leupold I had. Just a funny story I had to tell.
