Schmitt & Bender feedback

[Deleted member 48126]

You do realize S&B has come out with new lines and improvements in the last 5-10 years, right? And even a new one within the past year.

Most other scope companies are still trying to catch S&B. Which is great for the shooting sports. They have realized that the top echelon is tough to reach. And S&B (I am assuming) has no interest in bringing a less expensive/lower quality scope to the table that could be detrimental to the high expectations of quality they have come to represent.

What about Tangent Theta?
Zero Compromise Optics?
Minox ZP5 series?

All Alpha glass. All expensive. All relatively new.
And all compared to who? S&B.

If you cannot see a difference between a Razor Gen 2 or AMG and a S&B PMII in glass quality alone, I wish I had your eyes. Because I sure can. And I have owned them, and shot behind several other examples of them. Remember too, the Razor Gen 2 and AMG still has a hefty price tag on them when new. And how many were sold at that $3k sticker price?

I spend almost every weekend shooting. 2800-4000+ rounds a year for the past 5-6 years. So I get to spend a lot of time behind scopes. For me, totally worth spending on top tier optics. Unfortunately, only 1-3 shots are at big game each year. Sure wish I were luckier at drawing tags.

Not to kick a hornets nest...but looking through the AMG, Razor, my Cronus, SBII, and the kahles I really cant tell a difference at all.

I don't think there is any argument in quality or toughness of a SB. I think it has more to do with bang for the buck. But with those links you posted earlier I would get an SB over a Razor or AMG. If it were off europtics or from a retailer I would default to a vortex Razor/AMG and try and save the $1k I've seen personally in the retail price difference.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

Also @lancetkenyon about scope companies trying to catch SB...yes 100%. That's why we are blessed and have that huge array of scopes in the $1k-$2k range. There are even sub $1k optics now that are reliable and work when you need them to work. No doubt the high end guys paved the way for that technology.

 

[dfanonymous]

No, they use it because that is who got the contract - based on some of the military contracts I've seen it isn't always because it is the best, even though we would like to think that is the case. I am not saying that S&B is bad, but glass snobs and military sniper wannabes have their blinders on when it comes other companies who have made leaps and bounds. How many guys are shooting M700s with Leupold or S&B scopes solely because that is what some of our military guys use? This mentality also allows companies like leupold and remington and S&B to get lazy and coast on their military reputation while other companies are investing in R&D and putting out an equally good or superior products for less money.

There's a lot of misconceptions how the military selects things. What civilians think is better isn't always feasible based on what the testing standards are. Those testing standards vary based on who's making those standards and why.

There is usually a difference in how standards and made for gear for conventional forces and special warfare. I'd like to think the in the SOF community things make more sense then the idiotic bureaucracy in most general branch services but i can assure you it still happens. However when it comes to smaller leadership and having some cool support peeps, it's easy enough to get your personal stuff into country. Long as you're not gear queering, you can hack it and battle rattle meets the mission.

But no one messed up with S&B lol

 

[FIGJAM]

You do realize S&B has come out with new lines and improvements in the last 5-10 years, right? And even a new one within the past year.

Most other scope companies are still trying to catch S&B. Which is great for the shooting sports. They have realized that the top echelon is tough to reach. And S&B (I am assuming) has no interest in bringing a less expensive/lower quality scope to the table that could be detrimental to the high expectations of quality they have come to represent.

What about Tangent Theta?
Zero Compromise Optics?
Minox ZP5 series?

All Alpha glass. All expensive. All relatively new.
And all compared to who? S&B.

If you cannot see a difference between a Razor Gen 2 or AMG and a S&B PMII in glass quality alone, I wish I had your eyes. Because I sure can. And I have owned them, and shot behind several other examples of them. Remember too, the Razor Gen 2 and AMG still has a hefty price tag on them when new. And how many were sold at that $3k sticker price?

I spend almost every weekend shooting. 2800-4000+ rounds a year for the past 5-6 years. So I get to spend a lot of time behind scopes. For me, totally worth spending on top tier optics. Unfortunately, only 1-3 shots are at big game each year. Sure wish I were luckier at drawing tags.

You mentioned a few times that you have owned them all bro - we get it. Doesn't mean you opinion holds any more value than anybody else who has looked through high end glass. Everybody has different eyes.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

There's a lot of misconceptions how the military selects things. What civilians think is better isn't always feasible based on what the testing standards are. Those testing standards vary based on who's making those standards and why.

There is usually a difference in how standards and made for gear for conventional forces and special warfare. I'd like to think the in the SOF community things make more sense then the idiotic bureaucracy in most general branch services but i can assure you it still happens. However when it comes to smaller leadership and having some cool support peeps, it's easy enough to get your personal stuff into country. Long as you're not gear queering, you can hack it and battle rattle meets the mission.

But no one messed up with S&B lol

It's gotten to the point where you can call REF and they'll mail you what you want!! I did it for remote controlled robots in 2012-2013!! It should be easier for a scope.

 

[dfanonymous]

It's gotten to the point where you can call REF and they'll mail you what you want!! I did it for remote controlled robots in 2012-2013!! It should be easier for a scope.

Like the talon 2 or whatever it's called? The EOD guys robot? I've crossed trained with and theres always EOD attachments, so I played with one, by moving around a inert 81mm but I don't remember anything about them. If they gave you one of those before rolling out then definitely a cool deal.

 

[Greyfox]

While the bulk of my hunting is done with a SFP/MOA scope, my favorite FFP/MIL scope used for hunting is my S&B PMII 5x25x56 with the P4/Fine reticle. I had a situation a few years back while mule deer hunting where the quick ranging scale(shown in lower portion of the reticle) proved to be fast and effective for a 450 yard shot in foggy conditions which rendered my rangefinder useless.
Note: The "fine" version has about half the reticle thickness shown in the diagram below.

 

[FIGJAM]

While the bulk of my hunting is done with a SFP/MOA scope, my favorite FFP/MIL scope used for hunting is my S&B PMII 5x25x56 with the P4/Fine reticle. I had a situation a few years back while mule deer hunting where the quick ranging scale(shown in lower portion of the reticle) proved to be fast and effective for a 450 yard shot in foggy conditions which rendered my rangefinder useless.
Note: The "fine" version has about half the reticle thickness shown in the diagram below.
View attachment 130742

So it was too foggy to use a rangefinder, but clear enough to see and use your reticle to range a deer at 450 yards?

 

[Deleted member 48126]

Like the talon 2 or whatever it's called? The EOD guys robot? I've crossed trained with and theres always EOD attachments, so I played with one, by moving around a inert 81mm but I don't remember anything about them. If they gave you one of those before rolling out then definitely a cool deal.

Same concept as a talon but it was the super tiny ones that you literally throw into culverts. That have a hook to drag stuff and move stuff out of the way and a camera that's it.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Back when Ed Brown was still building rifles they told me that in their opinion Swarovski was the best "glass" there is. All things considered that is probably a true statement. Again, the difference is probably not measurable without some sort of scientific equipment at some point.

At one point maybe, but not anymore. I compared all lot of scopes and to me they are about like a Leupold VX-6.

 

[gpo1956]

So it was too foggy to use a rangefinder, but clear enough to see and use your reticle to range a deer at 450 yards?

Factoring in "a few years ago" and not knowing the age of the range finder at the time,
I see nothing to be skeptical about. I've used a couple of current rf's that wouldn't range 450 yards in fog or rain.

 

[Greyfox]

So it was too foggy to use a rangefinder, but clear enough to see and use your reticle to range a deer at 450 yards?

Yes! It was probably more "mist" then actual fog, caused by the early morning thermals in the area where the buck was positioned. It was fairly clear for about the first 200-300 yards to him. Could not get a consistent range with either my Leica Geovids or my G7-RF. Lasers don't seem to handle high levels of air moisture very well. I could see him well enough to range him with the reticle. We were plagued a mornings that week with the weather conditions producing early morning mist/fog in certain areas that was usually cleared out an hour or two later.

 

[FIGJAM]

Yes! It was probably more "mist" then actual fog, caused by the early morning thermals in the area where the buck was positioned. It was fairly clear for about the first 200-300 yards to him. Could not get a consistent range with either my Leica Geovids or my G7-RF. Lasers don't seem to handle high levels of air moisture very well. I could see him well enough to range him with the reticle. We were plagued a mornings that week with the weather conditions producing early morning mist/fog in certain areas that was usually cleared out an hour or two later.

That makes sense - I hunt at elevations where I am constantly dealing with fog - If it is too foggy to range the animal, I usually can't see very well past a couple hundred yards.

 

[FIGJAM]

Factoring in "a few years ago" and not knowing the age of the range finder at the time,
I see nothing to be skeptical about. I've used a couple of current rf's that wouldn't range 450 yards in fog or rain.

Rain is a little different, you can see a long ways away through rain.