Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by djfergus, Apr 13, 2019 at 11:48 AM.
If you can find me one at $2100 please PM me!! Lol
Just figured I would ramble a bit...
The old adage I was taught similar to those that have mentioned the twice the price of the rifle was to spend as much on the optic as I could afford at the time.
I have several brands including most discussed in this thread with the exception of the valdada stuff.
I like and truely appreciate what they all do at their price points.
I put a Vortex Tactical on my CZ455 and am super pleased.
But I also love my PMII with LRR reticle.
No one really believes one can’t manage very well with moderately priced optics.
And seems most admit that there is a point where the diminishing returns make the minor improvements very pricy.
However I believe there are measurable differences that justify an individual to spend additionally should that bring peace of mind to them.
I find it disengenuous to broad brush condemn folks for their particular filters and choices.
I will always agree that name brand and marketing will Drive part of the end price. But so does warranty, customer service and business longevity.
I don’t know how many times I’ve had something in the past decade where I need customer service and said company is no longer in business or has been restructured.
As such, if I am spending large chunks of equity, the more mature companies with some marketing built into the price still will often get my business as the odds are they will still be in business at a much later point.
One item to consider, S&B must think you are not going to keep their optic more than 10 years because that's all they warranty it for. Only Zeiss, Leupold and Trijicon sit on top of my rifles now.
Check the book the scope comes with. Bet it’s more than 10 years. Unless it’s not a pm2 it’s one of their other models.in which case whatever
S/B don't buy one dude because everything you named besides the Zeiss will either sit in the safe or be on the classified section for sell.
3-12×50 PMII $2150
5-25×56 DT $2100
Stratos 1.1-5×24 $1850
1-8×24 PMII $2050
3-12×42 Klassic Precision Hunter $2200
3-20×50 PMII MTC/LT $2300
I can only speak to what i feel , and have seen with my own eye's . I wanted the s&b 5x45x56 34mm pm 2 , at the time I was looking they were 6,400 later found onsale for 5,400. I could not justify to myself spending that much so i purchased the ior crusader 5.8x40x56 40mm for 3000 dollars on sale that's with delivery and rings , and have been thrilled by my choice thus far . The cost difference is what grabbed me . all my friends that shoot have night force scopes like the atacr 7x35x think its 56 with a 34mm or the 5x25x56 ffp think a 34 mm tube all costing more around 3,600 something I like there scopes as well . For me the deal I got made my choice make more scene . The cost was less money spent with more usable mag range and either a better view or equally nice , and at less cost i got everything i wanted my glass is as clear as any i have seen through and the view is as described by Richard Utling and rex on you tube videos ineradicable . Will I be able to use it at 40x in summer heat , probably not any more than anyone else merge is what it is . As far as Japanese glass no one should have a problem just based on where it was made . Good glass is just good glass and vortex , night force , delta , and i think Bushnell all get there glass from the same places at least some of it , so its up to the companies to quality control their products . Do bad things happen yes , look at every car company any where on the planet . 100,000 good cars role off the line a few of them are bound to be lemons . you just have to hope they will stand bye there product and do the right thing. most do some will not. But you have to decide for your self which you prefer and what works best in your budget and for your need . And if you can wait for it on sale almost every scope i have mentioned i have seen lower prices online for in the last year or so . If a ferrari a good car yes . Does everyone own and drive one no same for rifle scopes S&b are great they are the bench mark that every other compare other scopes to and that is for a good reason .
It is true that the S&B glass hasn’t changed in 18 years. The same is also true with the quality of glass in my Zeiss spotting scope as well as my Swarovski binoculars. People use those pieces of equipment and say “wow! My point was and still is that it is important to purchase equipment that matches your current needs and paying more for higher quality and durability for particular features (If you can afford it) often means that you will use that equipment for much longer than you originally thought and not have to purchase new equipment sooner than necessary.
Everyone who gets behind one of my S&B scopes says “wow! That is good glass”. They would likely say the same thing if they looked through a Swarovski, Nightforce or Kahles. My point about using my now 18 year old scope on a new rifle is that the glass doesn’t matter. The glass on that scope is every bit as good as my new scopes and as good as other high end scopes on the market today. But what does matter is that the turrets on that old scope still work as well as they did when I purchased it.
The newer S&B models are better than my old scope (larger field of view, greater range of magnification and more functionality on the turrets) but the glass, accuracy of the turrets and ability to take a beating (like getting dropped and still holding zero) are the same. There is a reason many members of the military use this equipment.
I regular build new rifles either to upgrade or add capability mostly because it is fun and I have a bad habit. However, I don’t see a need to purchase another scope any time soon even if I upgrade a rifle.
No, they use it because that is who got the contract - based on some of the military contracts I’ve seen it isn’t always because it is the best, even though we would like to think that is the case. I am not saying that S&B is bad, but glass snobs and military sniper wannabes have their blinders on when it comes other companies who have made leaps and bounds. How many guys are shooting M700s with Leupold or S&B scopes solely because that is what some of our military guys use? This mentality also allows companies like leupold and remington and S&B to get lazy and coast on their military reputation while other companies are investing in R&D and putting out an equally good or superior products for less money.
The regular dudes in the infantry divisions are using ACOGs and Luepolds. Them special forces folk get them fancy S&B, and I think nightforce too.
Buy once, cry once. For western hunting and a bulletproof scope, try a PMII 10x42. Cameraland had them brand new for $1699 last year...
Extracted from their website ...
As of last couple years they raised their warranty to align with industry competition. It’s now 20 year transferable in US.
With some google foo it can be found referenced.
This snip from a rifleshooter.com article.
You do realize S&B has come out with new lines and improvements in the last 5-10 years, right? And even a new one within the past year.
Most other scope companies are still trying to catch S&B. Which is great for the shooting sports. They have realized that the top echelon is tough to reach. And S&B (I am assuming) has no interest in bringing a less expensive/lower quality scope to the table that could be detrimental to the high expectations of quality they have come to represent.
What about Tangent Theta?
Zero Compromise Optics?
Minox ZP5 series?
All Alpha glass. All expensive. All relatively new.
And all compared to who? S&B.
If you cannot see a difference between a Razor Gen 2 or AMG and a S&B PMII in glass quality alone, I wish I had your eyes. Because I sure can. And I have owned them, and shot behind several other examples of them. Remember too, the Razor Gen 2 and AMG still has a hefty price tag on them when new. And how many were sold at that $3k sticker price?
I spend almost every weekend shooting. 2800-4000+ rounds a year for the past 5-6 years. So I get to spend a lot of time behind scopes. For me, totally worth spending on top tier optics. Unfortunately, only 1-3 shots are at big game each year. Sure wish I were luckier at drawing tags.