Sako 85 Bavarian 7mm Rem Mag - Bad 1st shot

[officework13]

Sako 85 Bavarian 7mm Rem Mag.

i am new to reloading and so i do not know if the issue is a reloading issue, a scope issue, a barrel issue or other.

This is a brand new Sako rifle. Guaranteed 5 shot moa.
optilock rings & bases
burris veracity 5-25x50 ffp. (i have use the scope on my 22-250 and with factory ammo which it likes the 50gr vmax from hornady i ended with a .6 - 5 shot MOA (Savage model 12 BTVSS).
rings/bases were all torqued.
action was removed checked and retorqued.
barrel has no rubbing when warm or cold
the process of shooting is to shoot 5 shots, take 10-15 min break then shoot the next 5.

i have tried cheap ammo and expensive ammo & reloads. i have shot off a lead sled with 15lbs of sand and a buddy (who shoots competition) has shot with sand bags. same general result.

The barrel was broke in & cleaned and then it has just been shot with. i do not clean between groups.

the issue is that Hornady superformance 154gr SST (which is what Stoeger indicated they would test the ammo with) gives me 3 MOA at 100 yards.

cheap federal, winchester or hornady gives me about 1.5 - 2.5 moa.

i did some reloading using H4350 with 168 VLD seated 20 thous off the lands - Fed mag primer, new hornady brass & then 1x fired brass

i have a few loads that i could work with but the issue is the 1st shot is often away from all the others. I have attached a couple pics. maybe someone knows the issue.
i would send the gun back to Stoeger for testing/new gun but i know i wont get it back by hunting season.

any suggestions, much appreciated.
on this image - look at shots with 56 +57 grains. 2 different shooters using 2 different rests (sled with 56, sand with 57). the first shot is the outlier.
can not recall which was the first shot with the others.

i was more diligent in marking the shot numbers on this one. The barrel was cleaned. then i shot 3 fouler shots. Each group was shot with a 10 min break between groups. the grouping order was 59, 56, 56.5, 57, 57.5, 59.5, 60 (there was still no pressure signs with either the 61 or 61.5.

Any ideas of where to go next much appreciated.
i plan on trying either H1000 or Retumbo. but will the different powder make a diff with the first shot.

 

[sourdough44]

Just some general comments. We all have read how shots from a clean or cold barrel often impact away from the main grouping. I do think there is truth to that, but it sounds like it's not a simple answer for your woes. It sounds like your barrel wasn't cleaned starting off, excess heat shouldn't be present either.

I never had high accuracy expectations with Hornady Super performance ammo, though you tried several types.

You may have to try more components and factory loads. One of my ways to check accuracy is often with match bullets, usually Sierra. No I wouldn't be hunting with them, but just for evaluation. I'd also peek at some of the recommended powders and loads on several reloading manuals.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Officework... Heya buddy... Don't despair. Sako's are excellent rifles and I am confident that you will get this sorted out.

First, my recommendation would be to find a day when you have some real time.... And then shoot 1 shot... Wait 10 minutes and take another shot... And so on. Does the first shot of each group still seem to wander? If not... Then your chamber/ barrel is heating and changing the dynamic of your subsequent shots.

If waiting 10 minutes between shots still has your first shot of a group away from the rest... I'm truly baffled. If however this resolves your issue, then I would be checking to verify that your stock is not making any kind of contact with the barrel. You can do this by running a flexible business card from around the front of the barrel.... To about an inch or inch and a half in front of the lug. I'd also verify that your action screws are both tight And torqued to specified weight.

If your barrel is indeed free floated... And your action screws are properly torqued, I probably would start to believe that my action is improperly bedded... Or that your barrel is just extremely sensitive to the difference between the heat from your first shot... And subsequent shots. Sako barrels are usually excellent... But most are cold hammer forged... And not stress relieved. This can cause some of what you are talking about... But it's unusual that it would only be the first shot that's wandering.

I think I would either get my stock bedded properly by someone who knew what they were doing... And if the gun is in wood stock, I'd replace it with a good synthetic.

I know how frustrating this can be.

Now... Before you check the issues above out... Were all these shots from VLDs? Try a different bullet before you go sending your gun in or selling it... Or even bedding or buying a new stock. In my gut... I have to believe you will get this resolved.

-james

 

[officework13]

i will add a few points.

1. barrel tested and folded $bill slides (a buddy also tested this and said it is OK).
2. i did not spend extra $$$ for the very nice wood stock to be taken off and put in a closet only to spend more money on a different stock. i understand what you are saying, but that is not an option.
3. yes, they were all VLD relaods except the 154 SST superformance which was factory load - and yes i have heard that VLDs can be sensitive to depth seated.
4. i am going to try a different scope to see what that does and maybe sand bags vs the sled rest.
5. i will also try a much longer time between each shot. i have another 2 rifles to play with while waiting.
6. going to try 2 3 groups at 56, 56.2, 56.4,
any suggestion on an extremely accurate bullet that is not as sensitive to depth or powder charge. I just picked up both 139gr SST, 162gr SST and 160 accubonds.
as for powder i have H4350 + H1000

should i bother working with the H4350 or switch to the H1000 and start over.

and if all else fails.
i just talked to Stoeger CS. here is what they will do.
1. inspect barrel
2. clean barrel
3. install a Burris Veracity 4-20x50 scope set on 12power (funny is i have the 5-25).
4. torque all rings, bases, action to recommended specs.
5. use factory 154 SST hornady superformance ammo.
6. shoot 5 shots on paper.
7. they use a front rest 2-3 inches back of swivel & sand bag.
8. if 5 shots do not go in 1" square testing is done and a new rifle is provided or refund.

unfortunately, i did not get on this 3 months ago when i got the gun as now it will take 1-2 months to test. but the guy said send it in after hunting season.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Looks like you have all the traditional bases covered, as well as a few others. As to bullets, I've heard the vld hybrids are very accurate and not sensitive to seating depth. I have not yet tried them as I have a box of 500 vld hunting that I've found a good load for so I'm working my way through that. If some 30cal 215 vld hybrids come available... I'm planning on grabbing a box or two and put them through the paces.

Good luck... And I agree with stock replacement. I have a hard time dropping good coin on a nice rifle to then drop even more on a replacement stock... But many do.

Bedding the rifle however might totally transform a non-performer.

Lastly... I don't necessarily look at your situation as first shots that are bad... But subsequent shots that are. I know your frustration as I have a 308 savage that I've done everything to except bedding and/changing the stock which just will not perform. At least yours is doing something that seems to be repeatable. The only thing that my savage is doing which can be repeated, is shooting huge crappy groups with no uniformity or predictability with every type of ammo I've fed it. 12 different varieties and counting. I'm done with it. It's either going back to the factory...or I'll sell it for cheap to someone who wants to mess with it.

 

[officework13]

one thing that may (just may) have resulted in this mess is that it may be due to having the first round sitting in the chamber for a minute while aligning things up prior to shooting. maybe 1 minute. Perhaps there is enough warmth from the barrel to increase the temp of the load causing it to go a bit higher.

i will have to pay attention to this and make sure to load 1 at a time and only when ready to fire.

thanks again for some pointers

 

[scottishkat]

I believe that H1000 is a far better choice than H4350. H4831 would also be an excellent choice as well. I have a friend who shoots Retumbo with heavy bullets in the 7mm Rem Mag like the 168 vld.

What type of cleaning regimen are you doing. I no longer use anything but BTE Bore Tech Eliminator it eliminates alot of the cold bore strays and really gets the copper out I recommend it.

I have 2 Sako 85's and they both shoot 5 shot MOA.

Good luck and shoot straight

Bob

 

[officework13]

H4831, along with most other powders vanish from shelves when they come in to town.
as for my cleaning.
i have used wipe out once
as well have used hopes elite gun cleaner.
no indication of copper fouling - just carbon.

i have been provided mixed comments on cleaning. some say clean between each group and fire 2 fouling shots.
others say, don't clean.
can not recall which method i did which time.

 

[Marble]

Don't forget RL 22. It's been my go to powder for several 7mm.

Secondly, as far as cleaning, ever use JB bore cleaner?

I went through t his with my 300 WM. I ended up pillar bedding the stock myself (which you can do with your pretty wood stock) and finally shooting H4350. I tried RL 22 and a few others and it just wouldn't shoot. It was an Ah-hah moment as soon as I shot the H4350.

 

[travelhunter]

my 2 cents

i have found that barnes bullets(x ,lrx,tsx.ttsx) seem to really likein numerous calibers)
to be seated far off the lands .0040 to .0050 0r more.
secondly . I SWEAR they perform closely independent of seating depth.
the first shot is invariably high and right but the next 4 are bugs
i used this gun like so:
every hunt, 1 shot fouler at start of hunt. NO CLEANING until back home
hope this helps
this gun loves any barnes from factory seating to .0040 off in any weather and condition.
johnny
ps
i use h4350 exclusively on this gun

 

[buckfever257]

Officework i understand your frustration completely. I have been going through the same thing with now my second sako 85 7mm mag. I sent the first one in because of extraction and accuracy issues and they sent me a new rifle without even telling me which i thought was kind of lame but when i received yhe new rifle it had much nicer wood so i got over it. So i take this next one to the range and it wont shoot either. After 40 rounds of a variety of ammo the gun still fouls so badly after 1 round of ammo it takes 30 minutes to clean. Ive checked everything. Beretta wants me to send it in again i told them i want a refund not a new rifle and he said well its not up to me so i may just replace the barrel and move on. This was my first no excuse me second and last Sako ever after this experience.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

According to David Tubb..HBN coating your bullets will solve first shot fliers.

 

[buckfever257]

It might solve first shot fliers but it isnt going to fix bad barrels. I only say that cause this is my second 7mm mag with a bad barrel. They dont shoot these guns like their claim no way they could have. Beretta is a big fat lie and has ruined Sako.

 

[barefooter56]

Sako 85 Bavarian 7mm Rem Mag.

i am new to reloading and so i do not know if the issue is a reloading issue, a scope issue, a barrel issue or other.

This is a brand new Sako rifle. Guaranteed 5 shot moa.
optilock rings & bases
burris veracity 5-25x50 ffp. (i have use the scope on my 22-250 and with factory ammo which it likes the 50gr vmax from hornady i ended with a .6 - 5 shot MOA (Savage model 12 BTVSS).
rings/bases were all torqued.
action was removed checked and retorqued.
barrel has no rubbing when warm or cold
the process of shooting is to shoot 5 shots, take 10-15 min break then shoot the next 5.

i have tried cheap ammo and expensive ammo & reloads. i have shot off a lead sled with 15lbs of sand and a buddy (who shoots competition) has shot with sand bags. same general result.

The barrel was broke in & cleaned and then it has just been shot with. i do not clean between groups.

the issue is that Hornady superformance 154gr SST (which is what Stoeger indicated they would test the ammo with) gives me 3 MOA at 100 yards.

cheap federal, winchester or hornady gives me about 1.5 - 2.5 moa.

i did some reloading using H4350 with 168 VLD seated 20 thous off the lands - Fed mag primer, new hornady brass & then 1x fired brass

i have a few loads that i could work with but the issue is the 1st shot is often away from all the others. I have attached a couple pics. maybe someone knows the issue.
i would send the gun back to Stoeger for testing/new gun but i know i wont get it back by hunting season.

any suggestions, much appreciated.
on this image - look at shots with 56 +57 grains. 2 different shooters using 2 different rests (sled with 56, sand with 57). the first shot is the outlier.
can not recall which was the first shot with the others.

i was more diligent in marking the shot numbers on this one. The barrel was cleaned. then i shot 3 fouler shots. Each group was shot with a 10 min break between groups. the grouping order was 59, 56, 56.5, 57, 57.5, 59.5, 60 (there was still no pressure signs with either the 61 or 61.5.

Any ideas of where to go next much appreciated.
i plan on trying either H1000 or Retumbo. but will the different powder make a diff with the first shot.

officework13,
Please go to our website and read Eric Steckers article "VLDs. Making them shoot". Your issue just may be in your reloading buy not having truly found the seating depth and velocity accuracy nodes for your rifle. Until you do that you may be just chasing your tail. If you need any help you can contact us in this string or at [email protected].
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech