SAFETY REMINDER!!!

[HaroldNRAEndowment]

I have been involved with explosion investigations as project manager and I can tell you after significant investment of funds, 3rd party experts, detailed analysis of the remaining parts, 6 months later we had lab reports, speculation but no true answer. When stuff goes boom, it is not an exact science on being able to document the root cause and more likely just contributory causes. Now if we can just get the load data it may help but it is not likely to prove anything for detonation theory. What was the precise angle of the chamber? Never know that. Even that doesn't prove squat since the actual powder distribution in the case is completely unknown at the angle at time of ignition.

Western powders has a really good blog on powder position and pressure in a case whether pistol or rifle that everyone should read.
Link: Western Powders Blog

Thank You:
The Western Powders Blog is great information and explains details I had never seen before. Every one should read that if they did not already know the information and want to increase their knowledge. Understanding what is happening greatly increases one ability to load safely. One can follow reloading instructions only and reload fairly safely, but to know why things happens takes safety to the next higher level so as not to do something that one might think is inconsequential due to lack of knowledge.
Best Regards

 

[MRMAJESTIK]

What secret power do you have, to demand and receive? Who on this Forum owes you, or another member anything?

How many times, and in how many ways, does the demand for additonal detail need to be reiterated before it sinks in.

Humiliation = asking, then demanding over and over again, with nothing more to show for it. Pout on. In as many ways as one can imagine.

No amount of pouting and complaining will bring back the shell that blew this rifle apart. No quantity of money spent on follow-up investigation and analysis will give us that shell.

Done. Gone. Over.

Some would have more peace of mind had they never read this Thread. I suspect most are content with this SAFETY REMINDER, as is.

Wow, not "demanding" anything. Just would like to see events like this documented so that others could be informed.

SEE has been around for decades, like UFOs, but poorly documented, like UFOs.
No lab has been able to duplicate the event under controlled conditions.

A safety reminder is more useful if it has definitive facts of what to avoid.

 

[HARPERC]

In my case the boxes got checked. I was seating long compared to manuals. I had my partner working with the youngster while I changed clothes at lunch break. He was checking for flinch, and handing the kid the rifle unloaded, and loaded without him knowing which was coming. This meant pointing the rifle away, and at the ground positioning the powder at the front.
Instead of a basic flat base I had loaded the Berger .308 168 grain Classic Hunter thinking it would give me a chance to evaluate some low velocity opening with this bullet. Around the boat tail base is where the powder likely settled when pointed down.
I could tell when it went off things had gone wrong, the sound of metal letting go is distinctive to say the least. Changing in the truck I was on my way to the scene immediately.
How my partner was unscathed still don't know, he was positioned where most of the pieces went. The young man went to the ER, and had some small pieces of metal removed. One slightly larger piece was left per judgement, it wasn't large, but removing it might leave a larger hole requiring more stitches.
Side note he hit the can he was shooting at.
I may have chased it farther than I should because while that rifle always shot well, I was turning out consistently some of the best groups of my life.
I hung it over the bench as a constant reminder. As I'm downsizing the young fellow grown older wants it for his wall. He always has wanted it, I just figured I needed it more.
We did not scatter as much metal as some, and were incredibly fortunate.
I know a lot of people that don't believe in light load detonation. Maybe its like grandma getting run over by a reindeer, you have to be there.
In the intervening years so many inexpensive bolt rifles, properly scaled for kids in 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39 etc.. that make excellent first rifles, and effective within their limits (cartridge and kids) down loading isn't necessary.
It bears repeating buy another rifle.

I

 

[big johnson]

Years ago a new shooter showed up at the trap range with some reloads and borrowed a model 12 from a friend and started on post #2 when he pulled the trigger all hell broke lose. The action blew,the stock and forearm were gone and the barrel had a chunk out of the right side. Now one was hurt and very few wore eye protection in those days .The loads he had loaded were 16grs. of bullseye instead of 16grs. of red dot. Very bad mojo. I don't shoot very many reloads that other people have reloaded and their is always someone at the range that wants you to try their reloads.

 

[foxtrotter]

Reduced loads can be used safely. I use 5 grains of Red Dot with a foam filler over the top with a 165 gr. Remington Cor-Lokt in 308 Winchester to get subsonic results. Most are around 1100 fps.

I have shot a lot of squib loads using very fast powder and cast lead projectile always using a wad to hold the powder against the primer, great for practicing shouldering and trigger control with a real live round.

 

[Muddyboots]

No lab has been able to duplicate the event under controlled conditions.

You just answered your own request. If a lab under tightly controlled experimental conditions cannot produce the event, how does anyone expect an uncontrolled range event be able to confirm it? All aspects of the load are totally unknown and never will be known. The case volume, weight, case dimensions precisely measured, load density calculation, precise angle of rifle, precise angle of the load within the case, ambient temperature, temperature of the chamber, temperature of the case, internal temperature of the case, precise measurement of the powder, powder dimensions, precise measurement of the COAL, CBTO, bullet dimensions precisely measured, chamber measurements, bore measurements , bore condition, throat dimensions and condition. Ad naseam!

I routinely take these measurements for each load I take to the range, doesn't everybody?

 

[FEENIX]

What secret power do you have, to demand and receive? Who on this Forum owes you, or another member anything?

How many times, and in how many ways, does the demand for additonal detail need to be reiterated before it sinks in.

Humiliation = asking, then demanding over and over again, with nothing more to show for it. Pout on. In as many ways as one can imagine.

No amount of pouting and complaining will bring back the shell that blew this rifle apart. No quantity of money spent on follow-up investigation and analysis will give us that shell.

Done. Gone. Over.

Some would have more peace of mind had they never read this Thread. I suspect most are content with this SAFETY REMINDER, as is.

Agreed!

 

[MRMAJESTIK]

Thus there is no way to prove it was a SEE.

Could have been: wrong powder, bore obstruction, wrong load, wrong size bullet, defective case and on and on.

By the time the cartridge was chambered the die was cast.

 

[FEENIX]

The full details need to be published along with photographs as this could be the first fully documented case of this type of explosion. The subject has been discussed a lot but never been documented in depth.

Wow, not "demanding" anything. Just would like to see events like this documented so that others could be informed.

SEE has been around for decades, like UFOs, but poorly documented, like UFOs.
No lab has been able to duplicate the event under controlled conditions.

A safety reminder is more useful if it has definitive facts of what to avoid.

Perhaps you should take on this challenge and report back to us when you do. Meantime, "we" will heed Rich's friendly reminder on safety NOW. As previously noted, Rich has the best of intentions, and that to me is more important than what believe in. Do as you please with information and move on. Cheers!

 

[gunaddict]

Thanks Elkaholic for the safety reminder.

 

[xsn10s]

Thank you Ed! That means a lot to me.
I don't have ALL the info, and my intent wasn't to embarrass the client or anyone else. From what I gathered, he was using a powder with a similar burn rate as 4350, but an off brand, because of the shortages. And some of the variables, that have been mentioned, likely developed a perfect storm! Enough info to be valuable, IMO.

This ammo shortage is bringing a new variable to loading/ shooting. I'm on a FB 6.5x55 forum and a "new to reloading" member asked about Barnes Match Burner load using powders in the imr 3031 and I think imr 4064 burn rate area. Those were the powders he had so that's why he asked about them. People were trying to be helpful so they gave him some loads. One person stated that Barnes didn't list any loads with the powders he had. I think that was the responsible thing to do IMO. A "new to reloading" shooter needs to build their knowledge base before experimenting. I posted that his powders were in a faster burn rate than the Barnes data and that could create a high pressure problem. I also said since he was new to loading that he should be patient and follow the Barnes load data. That's what I did when I got started loading 30 some years ago. We experienced loaders need to keep learning and gathering "experiences" good and bad to keep us safe and proficient. Thanks for passing the info along.

 

[xsn10s]

Non factory expensive action. Meaning it should have been a good strong action, not from an Argentine Mauser, etc.
Hand load. It sounded to me like it was a fairly fast powder for the round and he had the muzzle tipped down. It wasn't, by his estimation, a heavy load at all.
He thinks, and I wouldn't doubt it, that he had too much air space and it caused an unusual detonation.
I wasn't there, so everything is second hand, but as I said, this guy is
No dummy!

This should be enough info to satisfy anyone.

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

If Rich's post gives us nothing more than food for thought, it has accomplished it's goal IMO. There is no such thing as "being too careful" in our chosen pursuits. Nothing man-made is foolproof.

 

[L.Sherm]

Theres a couple things I see that happens, if you look hard enough you will find something and if you believe it strong enough it will become fact.
Seems it happens with us reloaders we get set in our ways.
Probably could have put me in that class untill I started wildcatting, I had to start thinking outside the box and keep an open mind.