Resizing with full length or neck sizing die?

[woods]

Well you 2 guys have definitely stated your positions well and to tell you the truth it is hard to figure out how you are sizing different. Mike says he uses a bump die that sizes the case body (albeit minimally) and boomtube says sizes the case body and bumps the shoulder as a matter of course. That along with sizing the neck (even partially) to me is Partial Full Length Resizing.

I think neither of you would suggest pushing the shoulder back more than .003" or so which would be Full Length Resizing.

So

1. Size the case body (minimally)
2. Bump the shoulder (.001" or so)
3. Size the neck (part of it or all of it)

Given that none of us really want to use an expander ball, there are several dies or combinations of dies that will do this without one

1. Lee Collet / Redding Body
2. Forster Bushing Bump Die (being careful to push the shoulder back minimally so as to not create a shoulder/case body bulge)
3. Bushing Neck Die / Redding Body
4. Full Length Die with expander removed (if interior neck dimensions are large enough to enable turning brass to the right neck thickness to allow it)
5. Custom dies (which I am not familiar with)

So given that (IMO) a Lee Collet will size the neck very well without expense and the Redding Body Die does a good job (might size the case body too much and lead to more trimming), what custom dies would work better? And how are they better?

And where do you get pin gauges to .0005" boomtube? Mine are to .001".

IOW, would you 2 bring it back down a notch and give your opinion on the best dies and best ways to size given the commonly available equipment, pleeeese?

 

[Mikecr]

If you have to size the body, then you'd want to bump at the same time.
Otherwise these actions can work to counter each other.

I think we agreed that JLC provides good custom dies. I am totally happy with Jim's service and the performance of his dies. Just send him a few good fireformed pieces, and usually a donor body die.

JLC Precision, LLC
Jim Carstensen
13095-450th Ave, Bellevue, Iowa 52031
Phone 319-689-6258
e-mail: [email protected]

 

[BountyHunter]

Mike

OK now what you described makes sense after all this time.

Both of us are doing the same thing only calling it two different things and I think that is the issue.

Most people think of NS as "only NS the neck and not touching the body. That is what the standard NS die does and that is what most people are using. IMO you are not NS only as most posters are asking. You are basically FL sizing (minimally) but in steps instead of one die.

If you are using the Redding body die honed, basically same thing I am doing, but it is still FL sizing the body. Only minimally which is the perfect situation.

You have a fitted body die that minimally FL sizes the body, NS in another step after you use expanding mandrels to open the necks? Is that correct?

Agree get rid of expanders in standard dies or go one caliber smaller and use separate expanding mandrels.

You can send fired brass (normally fired 3x) to almost any die mftr and they will make a custom honed set of dies. Normally under $200 but delivery 3-6 months)

Lynwood Harrel in VA uses CNC to make custom dies. He can be found on BR central. Primarily the smaller calibers, not sure if he will make the larger ones. Same thing, 5 cases fired 3x.

Neil Jones makes a custom die set (micro adjust size and seaters) in either 7/8x14 or inline. Cost is $350-375. He can use a reamer print to make the first die which is NS only to allow you to load and fire 3X. Send him 5 cases fired 3X and the NS die back and he will convert it to FL die with custom body insert. His neck bushings are different, they FL size the neck and shoulder bump. They are micrometer adjusted. His large caliber (338 Lapu up) use an adapter bushing to fit the top of the press when you take out the 7/8 insert which he includes. Delivery time is 30-60 days. Have several and top notch.

Jim Carstenson can hone a standard die or take a Redding body die and convert it to a FL size die honed to your chamber. Cost is $80 and cost of the body die ($25). Turnaround is normally a week or so max. I have several of his dies.

You can order a resize reamer with a chamber reamer that can be used by a smith to make a custom matching FL die. The reamer mftr will make it to minimally resize the body and the die can be made a bushing die. The die blank must be heat treated after reaming. Die cost is $250 or so depending on the smith. Resize reamer will cost $150. Have several of these sets too.

IMO that is the best deal around if Redding makes a body die for your caliber.

Woods

You are absolutely correct on the three steps.

Mike and I have had a "semantics" issue on the definition of NS, as standard NS dies do not touch and do not size the body and it was not clear he was minimally sizing the body too. That is an important and clear distinction from normal NS operations.

On the sizing of the neck (all or part). All bushing dies size part of the neck, you adjust how much. They normally cannot touch the shoulder and leave a very minimal non sized area. The NS only dies can come down to the shoulder. The neil jones die is the only die that sizes all of the neck with a bushing and sizes all of the neck as standard.

IMO FL sizing is not predicated on pushing the shoulder back .003 or more as you stated. FL sizing is sizing all of the case, neck, body, web etc, not a certain amount on the shoulder. The degree of shoulder pushback and body sizing is question for best accuracy.

FL sizing can be done in one step with one die or in three steps as Mike stated, which is what I often do.

IMO key is:

1. Dies fitted to your chamber and properly adjusted
2. Minimal shoulder pushback (no more than .0015)
3. Minimal body sizing
4. NS using bushings and expanding mandrels
5. Annealing routinely

BH

 

[mo]

BH What good does the sizing mandrel do in a custom chamber? I use a FL bushing die and I bump the shoulder back .001, but I always take the sizing mandrel out of my die. So should I use mandrel?

 

[Mikecr]

Perfect!

 

[BountyHunter]

Amen Brother Mike!!

 

[flashhole]

I love it.

 

[BountyHunter]

BH What good does the sizing mandrel do in a custom chamber? I use a FL bushing die and I bump the shoulder back .001, but I always take the sizing mandrel out of my die. So should I use mandrel?

Many of found that if you size the neck up to caliber diameter and then resize down, it leads to a more uniform neck tension.

BH

 

[B23]

BH, could you help me understand this better, please. Maybe I'm thinking of something different but here is my question.

When you talk about sizing the neck up to caliber diameter with a mandrel you mean with a new piece of brass. Correct?

I ask this because I have a K&M expander die that has caliber specific mandrels and with a new piece of brass I have to use it to open up the necks to caliber size so my K&M neck turning device with caliber specific mandrel will fit down in there. On new brass it won't fit any other way but after that brass has been fired, even if it had no neck turning done to it, that same expander mandrel slips inside with no problem. Now after I have NS it's a different story. So my guess is you only use the expander mandrel on new brass or am I missing something which is very possible.

 

[BountyHunter]

Here is the best explanation I can show you.

6.5-284s of the Hoover Clan

read closely the para above the blue line "Talking with the Hoovers"

By the way, he as a 136 grain 6.5 out that is very very good. I think it is made off a special die that originally came from JLK.

BH

 

[Boss Hoss]

BH---I have read that before and when Speedy showed me the way he did it and I had to ask about neck sizing only (years ago) he just kept right on working and said "not if you want to win" then we went on from there. When turning the necks it is very important to make sure the mandrels that will be used are perfect before uniforming the necks prior to turning. To this day but I do not argue with the Professor when starting on a new caliber he always turns his own and we do mine the same way.

One of the other things that is overlooked is to have your dies made when the rifle is built---------also a lot of what is being discussed here is a waste of time with a factory rifle.

 

[Mikecr]

I don't see an advantage to sizing down brass, only to expand it so much, that you have to again size it down(Hoover method).
1. This only increases runout because the last size-down operation leaves thickness variance inward before seating.
2. It increases tension variance because the interference fit for the bullet is more than springback alone. Bullet seating here would be a final expansion sizing(after sizing down, up, and back down!)
3. It's additional and unnecessary cycling. Every cycle increases runout a little bit(never reducing it).

Expansion should always be last.
It may be that he has adopted this routine because his K&M expanders are not the correct size for what he's trying to do. This is why I had dropped K&M for Sinclair.

I Bump with zero body sizing, partial NS with a bushing, and run a Sinclair mandrel through each neck before seating.

 

[woods]

How much do you expand in the last step with the Sinclair mandrel? IOW what is the ID after the bushing sizing and then after the Sinclair sizing?

 

[B23]

Ok, now, I'm really confused....

Mikecr, help me understand why you would run a mandrel into the neck of your brass AFTER you neck sized it to whatever neck dia. you wanted???

Unless your mandrel was the exact same size as your neck bushing.

Maybe I'm totally missing something, which often happens, but if your mandrel is bigger than the I.D. of your bushing wouldn't it just make that NS step useless and if your mandrel is smaller than the I.D. what good would it do????

Just about the time I think I'm doing things right, you smart guys go and confuse me again. I better go take some Advil now.