rem 700 XCR

[Moman]

[

Having said that, I have started leaning more toward Howa actions which is who makes the Weatherby Vanguards. So a Vanguard is not a typical Weatherby. The sub MOA Vanguards also make a good platforn for a future build and are good shooters. IME, the Rem actions are good but the Howa actions are better. I have both, and when I wear out my Sendero barrels I'll probably sell them and order basic SS Vanguard rifles and replace the barrels and stocks. For now though, the Senderos work great for me.

Mark[/QUOTE]

Guys, pretty interesting thread. I have always liked the 700's and continue to have success with them. Mark, you bring up some interesting thoughts on the Howa's. I don't know much about them but have heard some good reports as well. I think the 300 WM that Kevin Cram built for Icanhithimman was based on a Howa action and that thing is a shooter for sure. Here is a link to a guy on Gunbroker that sells barreled actions at a pretty decent price if anyone is interested. I think blued is $400 and SS a few bucks more.

HOWA 1500 BARRELED ACTION 24" 300 WIN MAG $0 SHP : Bolt Action at GunBroker.com

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Guys, pretty interesting thread. I have always liked the 700's and continue to have success with them. Mark, you bring up some interesting thoughts on the Howa's. I don't know much about them but have heard some good reports as well. I think the 300 WM that Kevin Cram built for Icanhithimman was based on a Howa action and that thing is a shooter for sure. Here is a link to a guy on Gunbroker that sells barreled actions at a pretty decent price if anyone is interested. I think blued is $400 and SS a few bucks more.

HOWA 1500 BARRELED ACTION 24" 300 WIN MAG $0 SHP : Bolt Action at GunBroker.com

Thanks Moman, I have seen those ads in GB. The "buy now" price on the SS is a little over $500 which is good. I can get a SS Vanguard (not sub MOA) for about $550 locally. I would probably go that route and sell the stock for the difference. I looked at a 257 Weatherby the other day that had a 3 shot target that looked just under an inch. A while back they were running a sale on a couple of Sub MOA 300 WSM's for $600 and one of them had a 3 shot group of about 3/8". If I would have had the cash, I would have got it. it didn'nt last long.

 

[Booney]

That's great you have had good experiences with the 700 Rifles. What's your definition of sub MOA? Out to 800 yds? I have only ever owned 3 700's, 2 Senderos and a 243 BDL I got about 30 years. I gave it to my brother years ago. The Senderos shoot very well, the BDL was a 20" iron sight rifle and it was good for it's purpose, short range (less than 300 yds) deer hunting in PA.

For an out-of- the-box 800 yd hunting rifle, I would have to disagree with you. I think hoping for an 800 yd out-of-the-box 700 (other than a Sendero) is a stretch. Not impossible, but not likely IMO.

I would get a standard Vanguard (guaranteed to less than 1 1/2 MOA with factory shot target) before an SPS or XCR any day. On averge, I have little doubt, that they will outshoot a 700 (for the same price) and the action is hands down better.

to answer your question no but at 600 yard depending on which gun anywhere from 3in which is half a moa tho 6in 1moa

 

[Don Ward]

An off the shelf rifle can shoot great, average, or not so great regardless of brand. I would go with one that is a good foundation to work on if you end up with one of the not so great ones. Some weight is always nice when trying to put hits on at longer ranges (okay...any ranges!).

If you want to run the Bergers, going to a 300WSM or 300WM isn't necessarily a gain as has been suggested. If you compare the 180VLD from a 7mm going 2850fps vs a 185VLD 30 cal going 3000fps, the 7 will have the advantage at 800 yards in speed, energy , & drift.

Either can be pushed harder (we run the 7mm 180 @ 2980 in our chamber) but these are average velocities I see every day making dials for these calibers.

 

[tmfisher57]

Kinda surprised that the Howa/Vangaurd triggers haven't been mentioned? They're junk! With a Timney and some work you can get them to shoot, but better than a 700? Not buying that at all! Yes I own Howa's and a few 700's. Both pretty good guns, I lean toward the Remy, more parts to build with and WAY better trigger.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Kinda surprised that the Howa/Vangaurd triggers haven't been mentioned? They're junk! With a Timney and some work you can get them to shoot, but better than a 700? Not buying that at all! Yes I own Howa's and a few 700's. Both pretty good guns, I lean toward the Remy, more parts to build with and WAY better trigger.

I find your post somewhat incredible. Remington triggers known to be very difficult tune for the average gun owner and they are known to fail and cause inadvertent discharges. I have both Remingtons and a Howa and i have tuned all their triggers. It took me 30 - 60 minutes each to tune the Remingtons and about 2 minutes to tune the Howa. They all break very nicely, but the Howa is a little better IMO. Very crisp. Could you explain why a Howa trigger is junk in detail please. Anyone can get on their computer and type type that that some is "junk". Let's hear the details.

Another common problem with Remington's it that their bolt handles like to break off which is not a problem with the Howa's one piece bolts.

Like I said, I have both rifles and the Howa actions are hands down better. IMO, there is not one feature of the Remington actions that are superior to the Howas. If you know of one, I would like to hear it.

-Mark

 

[tmfisher57]

I find your post somewhat incredible. Remington triggers known to be very difficult tune for the average gun owner and they are known to fail and cause inadvertent discharges. I have both Remingtons and a Howa and i have tuned all their triggers. It took me 30 - 60 minutes each to tune the Remingtons and about 2 minutes to tune the Howa. They all break very nicely, but the Howa is a little better IMO. Very crisp. Could you explain why a Howa trigger is junk in detail please. Anyone can get on their computer and type type that that some is "junk". Let's hear the details.

Another common problem with Remington's it that their bolt handles like to break off which is not a problem with the Howa's one piece bolts.

Like I said, I have both rifles and the Howa actions are hands down better. IMO, there is not one feature of the Remington actions that are superior to the Howas. If you know of one, I would like to hear it.

-Mark

For one, it really takes you 30-60 mins to tune a Remy trigger? WOW! I've never in "real" life heard of a Remy trigger inadvertently discharge or fail. Yes you hear forum talk, but I'm talking from personal experience. A bolt handle to fall of is another good one, not saying it couldn't happen but I think we both know it's the exception not the rule, another new one for me. As for the Howa trigger, I tried to tune it, it had more creep in it than some of my old .22's. When I took it to a gunsmith and he charged me 30 bucks he said it looked fine and went to work on it to see if HE could get some creep out of it, to no avail. Still not wanting to give up on the gun I sent it with the local gunshop owner to the sportsmans expo in Portland, Oregon. He said he has a gunsmith that will fix it and of course another 30 bucks down the drain. Bought a Timney and gun shoots great. Go to 204ruger.com amongst other varmint forums and the guys there hate the triggers too. Actually your the first person I've read or talked to that likes the Howa trigger.
Not trying to start a fight here, I'm a new guy on here. You obviously like the Howa's. Great they're not bad, I like my Remy's. Let's agree to disgree.......

 

[MontanaRifleman]

tmfisher,

There was a recent thread in the Alaskan Outdors Directory Shooting forums in the gunsmithing section where one of the members had the bolt handle of his new XCR break off the same day he picked it up, complete with pictures. A discussion ensued about how common this was or wasn't with another one or two members chiming in about their Rem bolt handles breaking off.

Remington 700 bolt broke - Page 2 - Alaska Outdoors Forums

Bottom line, Howa bolts are one piece and this does not happen at all with them.

On the Inadvertent trigger firing, this is not an extremely common thing but there was a boy allegedly killed here in Montana a few years ago with one of these triggers. I know a lot of folks who will not own a Remington because of this issue and there are quite a few who wont own one for other reasons. I have two Senderos and like them and after tuning triggers I did and continue to do multiple safety tests with them, so far, no failure.

Yes, it took me about 30-60 min each to tune the Rem triggers. There are 3 triggers that must all be tuned in-sink with each other and it takes a while. You back out sear engagement and over travel screws, adjust the pull weight screw, then adjust the sear and over travel screws just right. I found I had to readjust the pull weight screws after tuning the sear and OT screws because it changed. it was a process of doing this cycle about 3 times each for both of my triggers before I got it the way I wanted. Removing and placing the Howa trigger back on the action is also MUCH easier than the Rems. A lot of guys get their Rem bolts upgraded with a Sako type extractor. Howa's come with a Sako type of extractor. I could go on and on. The Howa is superior in every aspect.

You will read a lot of posts about very happy and loyal Rem owners like yourself. You will also read about a lot of unhappy Rem owners, such as this thread here in LRH...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/im-done-remington-35619/

You will read a about a lot about happy Howa, Vanguard (Howa) and S&W (Howa) owners and I have yet to read about an unhappy Howa owner. I have read some posts about guys who did not like their triggers. I have handled about a half dozen or so Vanguards and Sub MOA vanguards in the stores, and all the triggers but one broke very nicely. One trigger did ave some creep. One of our gunsmith members recently post this tutorial one tuning Howa trigger complete with pictures. My trigger was much easier adjust.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/howa-trigger-adjustment-how-52584/

I'm happy with my Sendeors, but IME, my Howa is a much better action and the rifle is a shooter and any future builds I might do will be off of Howa actions. And BTW, my very first rifle was a plain Jane BDL 243. After less than 100 rounds through it, I discovered a crack in the bolt body.

Oh, and welcome to LRH

-Mark

 

[tmfisher57]

tmfisher,

There was a recent thread in the Alaskan Outdors Directory Shooting forums in the gunsmithing section where one of the members had the bolt handle of his new XCR break off the same day he picked it up, complete with pictures. A discussion ensued about how common this was or wasn't with another one or two members chiming in about their Rem bolt handles breaking off.

Remington 700 bolt broke - Page 2 - Alaska Outdoors Forums

Bottom line, Howa bolts are one piece and this does not happen at all with them.

On the Inadvertent trigger firing, this is not an extremely common thing but there was a boy allegedly killed here in Montana a few years ago with one of these triggers. I know a lot of folks who will not own a Remington because of this issue and there are quite a few who wont own one for other reasons. I have two Senderos and like them and after tuning triggers I did and continue to do multiple safety tests with them, so far, no failure.

Yes, it took me about 30-60 min each to tune the Rem triggers. There are 3 triggers that must all be tuned in-sink with each other and it takes a while. You back out sear engagement and over travel screws, adjust the pull weight screw, then adjust the sear and over travel screws just right. I found I had to readjust the pull weight screws after tuning the sear and OT screws because it changed. it was a process of doing this cycle about 3 times each for both of my triggers before I got it the way I wanted. Removing and placing the Howa trigger back on the action is also MUCH easier than the Rems. A lot of guys get their Rem bolts upgraded with a Sako type extractor. Howa's come with a Sako type of extractor. I could go on and on. The Howa is superior in every aspect.

You will read a lot of posts about very happy and loyal Rem owners like yourself. You will also read about a lot of unhappy Rem owners, such as this thread here in LRH...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/im-done-remington-35619/

You will read a about a lot about happy Howa, Vanguard (Howa) and S&W (Howa) owners and I have yet to read about an unhappy Howa owner. I have read some posts about guys who did not like their triggers. I have handled about a half dozen or so Vanguards and Sub MOA vanguards in the stores, and all the triggers but one broke very nicely. One trigger did ave some creep. One of our gunsmith members recently post this tutorial one tuning Howa trigger complete with pictures. My trigger was much easier adjust.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/howa-trigger-adjustment-how-52584/

I'm happy with my Sendeors, but IME, my Howa is a much better action and the rifle is a shooter and any future builds I might do will be off of Howa actions. And BTW, my very first rifle was a plain Jane BDL 243. After less than 100 rounds through it, I discovered a crack in the bolt body.

Oh, and welcome to LRH

-Mark

Well, like I said. We obviously disagree. Was the Remy trigger that went off killing the boy tampered with? I'd bet probably, as for the bolt handle, like I said, it's probable but not likely. Not saying it hasn't happened cause obviously it has, People get struck by lightning too I guess. As for the ol' Sako extractor argument that's like the full length guide rod argument for a 1911, to each his own, they both work fine. Remington has been building these guns for plenty of years and if the Sako style extractor was the bottom line to happiness I'm sure by now they would have incorperated it in there. As for the unhappy people with Remy's vs. Howa's. Simple math, How many Remy's are out there? How long has the 700 been in production? Now Compare these numbers to Howa. My Howa's are fine, they shoot fine with their new triggers. But MY Remy's shoot better. Heck, who knows? Maybe I got 2 lemons? Bottom line, guns are guns. Nowadays they're all pretty good. I just think a guy has to factor another 100 bucks when you buy a Howa for a trigger.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Well, like I said. We obviously disagree. Was the Remy trigger that went off killing the boy tampered with? I'd bet probably, as for the bolt handle, like I said, it's probable but not likely. Not saying it hasn't happened cause obviously it has, People get struck by lightning too I guess. As for the ol' Sako extractor argument that's like the full length guide rod argument for a 1911, to each his own, they both work fine. Remington has been building these guns for plenty of years and if the Sako style extractor was the bottom line to happiness I'm sure by now they would have incorperated it in there. As for the unhappy people with Remy's vs. Howa's. Simple math, How many Remy's are out there? How long has the 700 been in production? Now Compare these numbers to Howa. My Howa's are fine, they shoot fine with their new triggers. But MY Remy's shoot better. Heck, who knows? Maybe I got 2 lemons? Bottom line, guns are guns. Nowadays they're all pretty good. I just think a guy has to factor another 100 bucks when you buy a Howa for a trigger.

It's possible that the Rem trigger was tampered with, but there is deifnitely a trend with 700 trigger problems. I think that's hard to deny. I see guys replacing Rem triggers (without problems) just as much as Howa's. I like the triggers on my Senderos and Howa, the Howa was just much easier to adjust.

The argument that there are more Remmy's out here than Howa's has nothing to do with which is better. Remington has been around forever and does one heck of a lot more marketing than Howa. if you want to gauge quality, than look at the product and its components.

The Howa bolt lugs are longer, the shroud is heavier and more robust, the handle is slightly longer, the firng pin assembly is better IME, the bolt body is ported for gas expulsion, the Howa bolt is more snug and smooth in the action and of course the Howa is a single piece construction. Some may have their preference between the Sako and Rem extractors, but my guess is that if you did a poll the Sako style extractor would easily win out. The Howa receiver is stornger (based on my observation of the two side by side) and incorporates a built in integral recoil lug,. The bottom metal and mag box are better IME.

To me, there is is simply no comparison. The one advantage the Rem has is that the LA is slightly longer than the Howa allowing for the longer mag cartridges better in the mag box. But wiht the Rem, you still need an after market extended box to fit the longer seated bullets.

When you compare the two side by side, the Howa is simply better. There is no question or contest.

 

[tmfisher57]

It's possible that the Rem trigger was tampered with, but there is deifnitely a trend with 700 trigger problems. I think that's hard to deny. I see guys replacing Rem triggers (without problems) just as much as Howa's. I like the triggers on my Senderos and Howa, the Howa was just much easier to adjust.

The argument that there are more Remmy's out here than Howa's has nothing to do with which is better. Remington has been around forever and does one heck of a lot more marketing than Howa. if you want to gauge quality, than look at the product and its components.

The Howa bolt lugs are longer, the shroud is heavier and more robust, the handle is slightly longer, the firng pin assembly is better IME, the bolt body is ported for gas expulsion, the Howa bolt is more snug and smooth in the action and of course the Howa is a single piece construction. Some may have their preference between the Sako and Rem extractors, but my guess is that if you did a poll the Sako style extractor would easily win out. The Howa receiver is stornger (based on my observation of the two side by side) and incorporates a built in integral recoil lug,. The bottom metal and mag box are better IME.

To me, there is is simply no comparison. The one advantage the Rem has is that the LA is slightly longer than the Howa allowing for the longer mag cartridges better in the mag box. But wiht the Rem, you still need an after market extended box to fit the longer seated bullets.

When you compare the two side by side, the Howa is simply better. There is no question or contest.

The Howa bolt lugs are longer, how is that an improvement? The shroud is heavier, what benefits there? Again, longer handle? More of a personal choice than anything. The rest about firing pin, bolt gas expulsion are moot. The 700 firing pin assembly is fine and the action has the gas vents too. The 700 has been tested in the field, military,ect,ect. It IS one of the toughest actions out there, PERIOD. Adding thickness to the shroud, to me is weight or inferior metal? Don't know, The bolt lugs are proven, so again, is bigger really better? The 700 recoil lug is great, true not one piece but it works perfectly. As for a smoother action, different strokes for different folks I guess. To me they're pretty darn even there. So I still don't see where a Japanese built Howa action is superior to the time tested Model 700. Maybe it's just me and I'm the only one. I don't want to sound like a Howa hater here, cause I'm not. I love guns, all guns. Some ARE better than others, I just don't think a Howa holds a candle to a 700, PERIOD! Just my opinion....

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I'm not a Rem 700 hater either. I think it's overall a good action with some occasional issues. I just think the Howa is better. If you look into it's history, Weatherby contracted Howa to produce them and they were designed after the Mark V actions, which some will argue, is the best factory produced action out there. it's not quite a Mark V, but it's close.

Heavier shroud, longer lugs etc. means a more robust construction and with this crowd (LRH) that's a good thing with a lot of guys shooting the more robust cartridges and pushing them to their limits. many of these guys are building off custom actions that are also built more more robust and with longer lugs, one piece bolts etc. The Howa actions are closer to the customs in these areas then the 700. These are good things in the LRH world. Assuming of course that the steel is of equal quality. i have no reason to doubt that it isn't,a nd the Van Guards are are made to Weatherby specs, by Howa. Between a Van Guard and a Rem SPS or XCR, etc., I'll take a Van Guard any day.

Cheers,

Mark

Oh.... and I could care less where it's made. I look for quality period. An American bottom line oreinted company will rip you off as fast as any other company. If it's American made and quality made, then great.

 

[tmfisher57]

Well, sorry this go outta hand. This thread has been hijacked and then some, my apologies to the OP. Were beating a dead horse here, so with that, Mark, no hard feelings (none here). Great debate!!!! Terry