Redding Type "S" dies, are they worth the extra money?

[jgrreed]

Thx Bart.

I have the Redding FL resize, and the Forster micrometer seater sitting in my cart at Brownell's now..... I'll be getting the KM neck expander when I get my turning stuff. I added the carbide balls for the FL's too, to see how they work.

-J.

 

[Bart B]

I wouldn't use expander balls if best accuracy is your objective. They tend to bend case necks at an angle as they come up and out of the case. With the right size bushing, neck tension will be as desired as well as straight as possible for best accuracy.

 

[bigedp51]

I wouldn't use expander balls if best accuracy is your objective. They tend to bend case necks at an angle as they come up and out of the case. With the right size bushing, neck tension will be as desired as well as straight as possible for best accuracy.

Forster full length dies with the high mounted expander do not pull your necks off center. The floating expander enters the case neck while it is still being held in the neck of the die. An added benefit of this type high mounted expander is that any dings in the extractor groove will not cause the case to tilt in the shell holder on the down stroke of the ram. This is a big plus when reloading for semiautos like the AR15.

The Forster expander assembly works so well I converted my RCBS dies to the Forster expander. The expander floats and is self centering and will not induce neck runout.

The Forster expander assembly will produce cases with .001 or less neck runout, and can be sent back to Forster to have the necks honed to the size you request.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

 

[Jaxdialation]

So you recommend that the final neck sizing is done by the expander? Doesn't this imply that the neck has been sized too small in previous steps? Why would one do that?

Forster full length dies with the high mounted expander do not pull your necks off center. The floating expander enters the case neck while it is still being held in the neck of the die. An added benefit of this type high mounted expander is that any dings in the extractor groove will not cause the case to tilt in the shell holder on the down stroke of the ram. This is a big plus when reloading for semiautos like the AR15.

The Forster expander assembly works so well I converted my RCBS dies to the Forster expander. The expander floats and is self centering and will not induce neck runout.

The Forster expander assembly will produce cases with .001 or less neck runout, and can be sent back to Forster to have the necks honed to the size you request.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies within AccurateShooter.com

 

[Bart B]

'Tis my opinion that expander balls bend case necks regardless of their position in the die. My own measurements of case neck runout relative to the case shoulder axis showed that case necks are straightest if nothing touches the inside of the neck after its been sized down.

And a .001" spread in neck wall thickness will only make the case mouth center .0005" off center relative to the neck's outside anyway. And case necks do nothing to center the bullet in the chamber throat; there's a thousandth or more clearance between them and the chamber neck when the round fires. The front of the case is centered by its tapered shoulder perfectly centering in the chambers matching tapered shoulder. The case body does nothing to center the case neck and the bullet it holds in the bore.

 

[bigedp51]

So you recommend that the final neck sizing is done by the expander? Doesn't this imply that the neck has been sized too small in previous steps? Why would one do that?

Why would one do that depends on if you have a standard off the shelf factory chamber "OR" a custom tight chamber. Bushing dies require neck turning or else case neck imperfections are pushed to the inside of the case neck.

Too much of what bench rest shooters do with their tight neck custom chambers filters down to to people with off the shelf factory rifles. On top of this sizing the neck down over .005 with a bushing can induce neck runout. I have five .223 full length dies and my bushing die gives me the worst neck runout and the Forster die gives me the least.

Bottom line if you would have read my entire first post I posted a link to Accurate Shooter and Forster will hone your Forster dies to any neck size you request. And my main point being anyone with a standard off the shelf factory rifle in my opinion would be better off with a Forster full length die with its high mounted expander.

 

[Bart B]

BigEd, I'm not sure I understand your comments about case necks sizing and bending and expander balls. Here's a situation.....

Loaded round has neck walls with a .001" in spread thickness. It's a 30 caliber cartridge with a .308" diameter bullet in its neck. With neck wall thickness averaging .013" thick, the loaded round's neck diameter is .334" average. Firing that round expands the neck to about .338" diameter in a chamber neck that's about .344" diameter.

Sizing that neck in a gelded die (no balls) with its neck at .332" diameter has the case neck perfectly round at that same diameter while the neck is still in the die. It's mouth inside is now a little oval shaped with a .306" average diameter.

What's the inside and outside dimensions of that case neck after it's pulled out of the die's neck?

What's the inside and outside dimensions of that case neck when a perfectly round .308" diameter bullet's seated in it?

 

[bigedp51]

BigEd, I'm not sure I understand your comments about case necks sizing and bending and expander balls.

1. I do not get excited about bushing dies and off the shelf factory rifles, with a factory chamber using a bushing die can "INCREASE" your neck runout. And as I stated before my bushing die for my .223 has more runout than my Forster full length die.

2. With a standard off the shelf factory rifles your better off with the Forster full length die with the high mounted expander. If you want to be nit picky then have the Forster die neck honed.

3. This isn't Benchrest Central and bushing dies can and will induce neck runout when sizing the neck more than .005. Meaning the if you do not have a custom tight neck chamber a bushing die may be more trouble than its worth.

Two-Step Sizing and Case Neck Concentricity
by: Germán A. Salazar
The Rifleman's Journal: Reloading: Two-Step Sizing and Concentricity

"This article's title refers to two-step sizing, a term that may not be familiar to all, so an explanation is in order. When sizing with bushing dies, such as the Redding Competition and Type S dies, it is well known that a neck diameter reduction of more than 0.005" should be accomplished in two steps, with each step sizing the neck down no more than 0.005" and preferably less (see October 2009 article about neck tension). This two-step procedure not only minimizes sizing die induced concentricity deterioration."

Bottom line, my Forster dies and converted RCBS dies with the Forster Expanders produce the least amount of neck runout. I do not have any heartburn with expanders as long as they do not create or induce neck runout. And the vast majority of people who bitch about expanders do not lube their necks properly. And the average reloader doesn't need bushing dies with their factory rifles and SAMMI chambers.

 

[Bart B]

bigedp51 coments,

This isn't Benchrest Central and bushing dies can and will induce neck runout when sizing the neck more than .005. Meaning the if you do not have a custom tight neck chamber a bushing die may be more trouble than its worth.

Sierra Bullets has no problems using Redding S full bushing dies resizing totally unprepped cases in SAAMI spec chambers (normal chamber neck diameters, not tight ones) getting accuracy with their match bullets equal to whatever benchresters used to set aggregate records through 200 yards. They and others getting the same results with the same stuff must know how to set the bushing dies up and use them right; all without expander balls.

 

[bigedp51]

bigedp51 coments,
Sierra Bullets has no problems using Redding S full bushing dies resizing totally unprepped cases in SAAMI spec chambers (normal chamber neck diameters, not tight ones) getting accuracy with their match bullets equal to whatever benchresters used to set aggregate records through 200 yards. They and others getting the same results with the same stuff must know how to set the bushing dies up and use them right; all without expander balls.

Bart B

I'm 65 and have been reloading for over 47 years and the best part of reloading is I'm the one pulling the press handle. If you like bushing dies and they make you happy that's all that matters. BUT this doesn't change the fact that the average reloader does not need a Redding Type "S" die.

The bushing in a bushing die floats and can move from side to side and tilt and induce neck runout. And I even posted what German Salzar had to say on the matter to back this up, and you still came back with your smart *** reply above about bushing die setup. If you think your the only one who knows how to reload and measure neck runout your sadly mistaken.

Below is a Remington .223 case with approximately .004 neck wall thickness variation and a bushing die is worthless with cases like this. Meaning you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear using a bushing die and standard off the shelf Remchester brass.

Not everyone buys Lapua brass and has a Redding type "S" bushing dies. Some of us use the brass we have and have Forster dies with expanders that do not induce neck runout.

And when the Policeman next door gives you three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 once fired brass like above, you don't say, no thank you all I have is a Redding Type "S" .223 die. What you do is buy a Forster full length die with a high mounted floating expander and make the straightest cases you can make.

And I will say it again, too much of what benchrest shooters do has filter down to the common average reloader. And if you are not shooting in competition no one needs to spend the money on Redding Type "S" bushing dies when there are cheaper and better solutions for factory chambers and Remchester brass.

 

[AZShooter]

Kevin and Bigedp51 mentioned an important issue that needs to be explained in detail.

Many brands of brass have varying neck thicknesses. Lapua, RWS and perhaps some Norma are the exceptions.

If a bushing die is used with brass that has different wall thicknesses the OD will be the same but the ID will vary. This will affect neck tension.

Kevin's method of using a bushing die to ever so slightly reduce OD then running it past a sizer ball is a great idea. It is far less harsh than using a conventional FL sizer die with a expander ball.

The standard FL die is setup to reduce the neck OD on any brand of brass regardless of neck wall thickness. In some instances this can over work the brass.

A friend used his S bushing die to size all his Remington 338 RUM brass. He set up the rifle to shoot the 300 gr SMK so the bullet engaged the rifling. Two of his cases left the bullet in the bore when he removed the round!!!! Those two cases had the thinnest necks so they had very little neck tension.

IMO you should use a bushing with brass having the same neck wall thickness. Either turn the brass or stick with a FL die with expander ball OR use Kevin's method of a bushing die in conjunction with a sizer ball.

 

[Bart B]

I'm not going to call anyone a dumb *** because they cannot accept nor recognize the fact that full length sizing bushing dies on unprepped cases makes them shoot bullets to the same accuracy level that benchrest aggregate records produce with whatever things and processes they use.

And bullet runout numbers will vary a few thouandths on the same round across the popular three or four different ways to measure it. We all don't use the same setup and method, so comparing one person's numbers to that of another is meaningless. I measure runout with the case pressure ring in a V block for the back reference and case shoulder in a round hole for the front reference with the dial indicator at about .1 inch back from bullet tip. That replicates what happens in the chamber. Nothing else does, in my opinion.

Bye.

 

[Pdvdh]

2. With a standard off the shelf factory rifles your better off with the Forster full length die with the high mounted expander. If you want to be nit picky then have the Forster die neck honed.

Call me nit picky, because that's what I did for reloading .223s. Purchased a Forster FL die and then had them hone the neck to 0.2435". The high mounted expander worked the case necks very little. My case neck runout was substantially reduced resizing once-fired brass compared to the former RCBS full length sizer I'd been using. However I will say that the RCBS was an older die that was really sizing down the case necks excessively. The neck diameter in the RCBS die was much smaller than what Forster told me they manufactured/sold in their standard FL sizing die. The runout I had with the RCBS die caused me to try out a neck-honed Forster.

This past week I began outside neck turning some .223 cases. Lake City and Federal. Cleaning up about 40-100% of the outer case necks at the same cutting depth. Goes to show the variability of the case neck thicknesses on plain-Jane brass. Turns out I can now I can use the Forster die without the expander button. I could outside neck turn a little more brass off the necks and still maintain sufficient neck tension, using the Forster die without the expander.

Or if I don't want to turn necks, I can replace the expander stem/button and continue as I have been for the past couple years. I'm happy with the improved/reduced runout I'm getting either way.

 

[jrock]

I used Redding FL "S" dies for years before I did an experiment comparing those, RCBS, Forster, Forster factory honed neck, Lee RGB, and Lee collet dies.

The "S" dies are the worst of the bunch, but look the best and cost the most.
The Lee collet die is the best of the bunch, but looks the worst and cost the least.

I was curious about my RCBS neck sizing dies vs the Lee dies. I built a runout tool and checked. The FL dies ran .001 after sizing, neck dies were about .003 -.005 out of round, and the lee neck dies were .001. I then loaded the cases and rechecked. Resuts, I sold my RCBS neck dies. I turn my necks so I think the results were pretty good. Range results backed it up a bit and my rifle was factory. If my RCBS dies ever start inducing more runout, I might try another brand.