Redding bushing dies

[.30-06]

The Hornady sux in every regard. But that's another thread.

The complaint is too much play in spindals, cartridge rims varying and not being centered in taper on case head spindal, bullet spindal off centered and throwing off reading..... etc.

The instructions say to apply pressure on case head spindal with inserted cartridge until the bullet spindal knob is approximately and 1/8 inch from the base. In this case there is play to throw off the reading ESPESIALLY when you rotate the cartridge with the knob, but not so much when the cartridge is turned with your fingers. What I do is apply light pressure on the case head spindal with my middle finger and hold the bullet spindal and with my fore finger and tighten the case head locking knob until there is no slack on the cartridge between the spindals.

 

[.30-06]

You can see the tool indicate 0.001" runout without any mods. That doesn't mean that the reading is real, but rather what the tool is capable of resolving. False precision doesn't change the true accuracy of the tool.

the reading isn't real? What does that mean? If it's so off, and the tolerances are sloppy it would pick up alot more than .001, Ya Think?? !! I edited my post in response to Mikecr post about Hornady Concentricity tool being below par and took a pic of how I adjust the tool to get correct readings.

 

[Barrelnut]

With my Redding bushing dies, I have to leave the bushing real loose (lots of free play) in the die body or I get excessive runout on case necks. This with Lapua brass which had pretty consistent neck thickness.
I would suggest setting the free play of the bushing to on size half the neck. If runout is better, tighten the bushing a bit more until you start seeing runout increase.

Also, as mentioned above Forster dies are excellent and produce very little neck run out if the spindle is adjusted right. There are also do great by just removing the expander and using a mandrel.

 

[QuietTexan]

the reading isn't real? What does that mean? If it's so off, and the tolerances are sloppy it would pick up alot more than .001, Ya Think?? !!

Actually the opposite is true - a false lower reading is common if the stem of the dial is deflecting in the same direction the case is rotating in, or if the change in the surface being measured is less than the response range of the dial.

The true runout could be double, triple, or infinity more (in the case of a zero reading) than is indicated by the Hornady tool because of the poor quality of the dial the tool ships with. Put a Mitu dial into the tool and the readings will likely be different. Mount a test indicator on a stand next to the tool and you'll also get different readings.

A big selling point of "correcting" runout with the Hornady tool is a fool's errand to being with. It's a broken concept in that it literally relies on the assumption that the cartridge on the tool is broken and in need of fixing, and the solution of using the jack screw to move the bullet in turn is a poor solution that is an attempt to cover up the real problem. Run out is corrected by not inducing it in the first place - nudging a bullet does more harm than good, and still doesn't address the root issue.

This is all predicated on caring about runout. Once you get to a point you have essentially none, it becomes something you maybe spot check on occasion. But you don't get to there relying on poor tools that don't tell the truth, or half-way solutions of nudging bullets and ignoring root causes.

 

[.30-06]

Also, as mentioned above Forster dies are excellent and produce very little neck run out if the spindle is adjusted right. There are also do great by just removing the expander and using a mandrel.

pretty much

 

[nksmfamjp]

I think there is a bit of an unintended miscommunication going on, I believe. First, bushing dies in and of themselves do not improve runout. They are not intended to. Bushing dies are intended to give the user control over pre-neck expansion neck sizing. That's all.

Then you can expand in the die, on a separate mandrel or not at all. This has been well communicated here.

Also, concentricity is about determining when a case is held by its case walls in the chamber, how concentric is the bullet axis. This is best done with a 2 v blocks on the case walls and measuring tip or about 0.05 below the tip runout. Sinclair, 21st Century, RCBS, Accuracy One, etc all make tools that do this. I don't know why Hornady did what they did, but it is almost like they don't understand concentricity??

All that said, I fl size and expand in the die. I find with neck turned brass that bushing dies get about 0.002" runout on my 21st Century measuring tool. I find I can get more like 0.001-0.0015" with a Forster die. I find the biggest factor in runout it die tightening in the lock ring. Sometimes the lock ring just locks up crooked. FWIW, I find standard Hornady dies give about the same runout as the Forster dies…..people hate when I say that. Again, how you tighten the lock ring and expander are critical.

 

[Barrelnut]

I find standard Hornady dies give about the same runout as the Forster dies…..people hate when I say that.

Exactly. I think it is because you can adjust the expander to be way up in the die on a Hornady, like you do on the Forster.

 

[.30-06]

I don't know why Hornady did what they did, but it is almost like they don't understand concentricity??

It's easy to adjust the tool and it works well if you do. Thier instructions are wrong. If you do it thier way you'll have alot of movement in the bullet spindal. Also I compared to other tools and they all measure the same.

This is best done with a 2 v blocks on the case walls and measuring tip or about 0.05 below the tip runout

Untrue

 

[nksmfamjp]

This is best done with a 2 v blocks on the case walls and measuring tip or about 0.05 below the tip runout

Untrue

I'm interested. Why in your opinion is this untrue? ….or better yet, is there something else to measure by doing it your way…whatever that is.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Exactly. I think it is because you can adjust the expander to be way up in the die on a Hornady, like you do on the Forster.

Maybe, but I don't do that.

 

[.30-06]

I'm interested. Why in your opinion is this untrue? ….or better yet, is there something else to measure by doing it your way…whatever that is.

I'm interested. Why in your opinion is this untrue? ….or better yet, is there something else to measure by doing it your way…whatever that is.

I'm not Interested in saying it again.

 

[Mikecr]

I put a lot of planning into making straight ammo but it's not to center anything.
Our ammo lying loose in a chamber is not centered, and it's not off from center by much either. It doesn't matter.
What does matter is chambered pressure points, (interference fitting) from loading bananas with form exceeding clearances.
That's when shots are thrown.

Since I run with very low clearances, my loaded ammo needs to be seriously straight.
This is not a problem really because a low clearance chamber produces the straightest cases, and I size minimally to keep them straight.
By 'straight', I'm talking about very low in total indicated runout (TIR).

Where you have a lot of clearances (likely what I would see as excess), then you can get away with TIR up to ~3-4thou before affecting results.
Put that crooked ammo in one of my custom chambers and grouping would open.
All things are in balance though, and this is a balance too. Open chamber clearances, or FL size to resolve this, and it leads to higher loaded runout. But you only need to manage runout at less than your chamber clearances.
For a good SAAMI min chamber, 1-2thou TIR is ok, and easy to manage with rational sizing.

From neck benders (like the Hornady), you cannot read TIR, as much of actual TIR is masked by that approach.
Truly, you do not have straight ammo until verified as such on a v-block type open ended gauge.

 

[.30-06]

Our ammo lying loose in a chamber is not centered

ummm.... fireformed cases are sized with Redding body die. TIR is next to nill at all points of case where is needed.

I put a lot of planning into making straight ammo but it's not to center anything???

Since I run with very low clearances, my loaded ammo needs to be seriously straight.

I posted these quotes to expose contradiction.... sorry Mike but you talk in circles after your tail. I don't see any agreeing with you.

Truly, you do not have straight ammo until verified as such on a v-block type open ended gauge.

and I have verified on other opened end gauges and it's the same as the Hornady tool.