Rangefinders

[yobuck]

yes , we shoot the same range all the time . yes , first round hits is what we all try for . shooting sighters would be ok at a target under similar conditions , not for hunting in conditions that we probably haven't shot in .


a couple years ago I was sitting on our firing line during deer season . it was snowing fairly hard , around zero degrees temperature . I had a couple of deer come out feeding just behind our one target . I think it was our 1500 yard target . I get the rifle positioned , find the deer , try to range the deer , and get all kinds of weird readings . 30 yards , 100 yards , 30 yards 400 yards . I'm assuming the rangefinder was getting screwed up by the snow in the air . I get a dope book out and see what I dial at that target . then I quit , I knew I had no dope for these conditions . after the snow stopped I ranged the target the deer were next to . the rangefinder showed I needed 17 more MOA than I had in my dope book . if I had shot at these deer I doubt I would have seen any splash with the snow in the air and being 17 moa low .
if I would have had a kestrel I could have put in the target distance and probably made the shot .

Well Jim, i would have more questions, but they would no doubt lead to a big controversy.
But let me share a true story about what can and has been done many times by quite a few people.
First realize that maybe 20 years or so ago, very few people had lazer rangefinders.
And for the most part the ones who did were using a stolen military unit, mostly Russian.
Those units werent eye safe either.
And even fewer people had ever heard of things like a Kestral.
Fact is to this very day, ive never even seen a Kestral.
And i can introduce you to quite a few others who never have either. Yet for many many years they have been successful at long range hunting

But to the story, which happens to involve one of my sons and his then 15 year old daughter.
She was at our camp for the first 3 days of the first week of buck season.
This happened on Wednesday, her final day.
They were going to hunt till noon, come back to the camp for lunch then make the 3.5 hour drive to take her home, so she could be in school the next day.
So they had to stay close by in order to maximize their hunting time.
He decided to go to a location about 15 minits from camp.
But as he arrived there, he saw there were already several vehicles at that spot. So he never even drove all the way in there but instead just backed out to the road.
Which as it turned out was a shame, because he would have found they were old friends from a nearby camp, driving vehicles he didnt recognize.
And they had a nice 4 point buck laying on the hillside that was illegal for them to shoot. But not for my grand daughter.
It would have been an easy shot for her and a very easy drag for him. And he wouldnt have even needed to get his equipment out of his vehicle.
None the less, he headed up the road not knowing for sure what to do.
When he reached the top of the long hill up the valley he came to another location he had never been to.
He had to park on the shoulder of the dirt road, and carry the gun, 2 sets of glasses, the tripods, and a portable bench about 100' down to the actuall lookout.
He had no information at all on that location.
He also discovered that he didnt bring a rangefinder.
But thinking they probably wouldnt see a buck anyway they got setup and started glassing.
There was snow on the ground which of coarse made for better glassing.
Within 5 minits he found a decent buck alone and laying down.
The only choices he had was to let it lay, or simply guess the distance and shoot.
Now here is where the rubber meets the road, and knowledge and experience pays off.
He knew he would be better off guessing long than splashing dirt on the deer.
So he guessed 900 yards and added that elevation to the scope.
Told his daughter to get on the gun, which he had already placed on the deer.
He got on his glasses and watched for the bullet trail, which went over the deers back, but caused it to get up on his feet.
He then used what is referred to as the one shot zero.
And rather than confuse people, it would be best to research what that really means, and then practice actually doing it.
She got back on the gun and dropped the deer on the second shot.
She hit it high on the front leg, right where it meets the body.
The deer limped off a few yards and stopped.
He told her where to hold and shoot again right now.
With that shot the deer dropped and slid down the hill out of site.
He carried all the stuff back up the hill and loaded it in his vehicle.
They then walked over to where the deer was and found it dead not very far downhill from where she had hit it the second time.
On 2 out of 3 total shots at about 800 yards with no rangefinder.
Now mind you thats not bragging, thats simply what knowledge and experience can mean for a long range hunter.
And no freakin Kestral will ever teach you that.

 

[jimbires]

Well Jim, i would have more questions, but they would no doubt lead to a big controversy.
But let me share a true story about what can and has been done many times by quite a few people.
First realize that maybe 20 years or so ago, very few people had lazer rangefinders.
And for the most part the ones who did were using a stolen military unit, mostly Russian.
Those units werent eye safe either.
And even fewer people had ever heard of things like a Kestral.
Fact is to this very day, ive never even seen a Kestral.
And i can introduce you to quite a few others who never have either. Yet for many many years they have been successful at long range hunting

But to the story, which happens to involve one of my sons and his then 15 year old daughter.
She was at our camp for the first 3 days of the first week of buck season.
This happened on Wednesday, her final day.
They were going to hunt till noon, come back to the camp for lunch then make the 3.5 hour drive to take her home, so she could be in school the next day.
So they had to stay close by in order to maximize their hunting time.
He decided to go to a location about 15 minits from camp.
But as he arrived there, he saw there were already several vehicles at that spot. So he never even drove all the way in there but instead just backed out to the road.
Which as it turned out was a shame, because he would have found they were old friends from a nearby camp, driving vehicles he didnt recognize.
And they had a nice 4 point buck laying on the hillside that was illegal for them to shoot. But not for my grand daughter.
It would have been an easy shot for her and a very easy drag for him. And he wouldnt have even needed to get his equipment out of his vehicle.
None the less, he headed up the road not knowing for sure what to do.
When he reached the top of the long hill up the valley he came to another location he had never been to.
He had to park on the shoulder of the dirt road, and carry the gun, 2 sets of glasses, the tripods, and a portable bench about 100' down to the actuall lookout.
He had no information at all on that location.
He also discovered that he didnt bring a rangefinder.
But thinking they probably wouldnt see a buck anyway they got setup and started glassing.
There was snow on the ground which of coarse made for better glassing.
Within 5 minits he found a decent buck alone and laying down.
The only choices he had was to let it lay, or simply guess the distance and shoot.
Now here is where the rubber meets the road, and knowledge and experience pays off.
He knew he would be better off guessing long than splashing dirt on the deer.
So he guessed 900 yards and added that elevation to the scope.
Told his daughter to get on the gun, which he had already placed on the deer.
He got on his glasses and watched for the bullet trail, which went over the deers back, but caused it to get up on his feet.
He then held the reticle on where he felt the bullet went above the deer, and dialed down to the location on the deer he wanted her to hit.
She got back on the gun and dropped the deer on the second shot.
She hit it high on the front leg, right where it meets the body.
The deer limped off a few yards and stopped.
He told her where to hold and shoot again right now.
With that shot the deer dropped and slid down the hill out of site.
He carried all the stuff back up the hill and loaded it in his vehicle.
They then walked over to where the deer was and found it dead not very far downhill from where she had hit it.
On 2 out of 3 total shots mind you at about 800 yards with no rangefinder.
Now mind you thats not bragging, thats simply what knowledge and experience can mean for a long range hunter.
And no freakin Kestral will ever teach you that.

that's good , glad they got it .

 

[yobuck]

that's good , glad they got it .

Yes it is good Jim, and for sure we were all glad they got it.
But as an old fogy who has been seeing how things have changed in recent years, i have to chuckle about what is now deemed to be a must have piece of equipment in order to get good results.
And the absolute fact is that many of the must have things being used today arent really all that important at all.
But we do live in the modern world, and many have come of age in that world, and know nothing else.
And thats a shame.

 

[rlshrumva]

I switched before last hunting season to the Sig BDX system. I bought two (2) 4.5-14x50mm scopes for my rifles (6.5 Creedmoor and 300 win) and then added the Kilo 5k. The system is awesome and the 5k is especially amazing!

 

[schamsy33]

I have the BR4 as well but I find it very hard to spot animals to range after glassing them even elk at 1100 yards do you have this problem as well. The glass in mine I feel is horrible.

Not my experience at all. The glass is very good.

 

[Squatch]

Will Leica give you a ballistic calculation on their own ? that's why they pair with a Kestrel. I do not want to carry two pieces of equipment if I don't have to.

Yes the leica will give you a solution out to 1000yds. Beyond that you need the kestrel. When paired you will also see the wind correction in the leica display.

 

[yobuck]

Well since ive admitted to never even seeing a Kestral, i do know pretty much how they read wind.
Which is i believe at the location where the Kestral is being held.
Ive even talked to a guy who tested his by holding it out of his vehicle window and comparing it with the speedometer.
But my question is that when your sitting on lookouts on top of a mountain, looking across a very wide valley, you will quite often see large birds working those valleys without ever flapping their wings.
So what keeps a big heavy bird like that up there?
I would assume the same thing that holds a guy up in the air while hang gliding in some of those same valleys.
Also, as anyone who has done any amount of glassing can tell you, the sidehill across the valley you are looking at will have hollows, which are deep and wide creases in the terrain, and which quite often form their own wind conditions.
So the absolute fact is that you could be attempting to shoot across multiple different wind conditions.
And your Kestral only gave you the speed of the wind where you happen to be standing.
Yet we seem to have intelligent people who think differently.
Mind you i have no problem at all with different thinking people, obviously im one of them.
But i would like to see one of them prove me wrong with their wind reading skills by using one of those things at a location they have never been to before.

 

[338 dude]

Yes the leica will give you a solution out to 1000yds. Beyond that you need the kestrel. When paired you will also see the wind correction in the leica display.

There are also wind corrections given with the vortex binoculars.

 

[338 dude]

Well since ive admitted to never even seeing a Kestral, i do know pretty much how they read wind.
Which is i believe at the location where the Kestral is being held.
Ive even talked to a guy who tested his by holding it out of his vehicle window and comparing it with the speedometer.
But my question is that when your sitting on lookouts on top of a mountain, looking across a very wide valley, you will quite often see large birds working those valleys without ever flapping their wings.
So what keeps a big heavy bird like that up there?
I would assume the same thing that holds a guy up in the air while hang gliding in some of those same valleys.
Also, as anyone who has done any amount of glassing can tell you, the sidehill across the valley you are looking at will have hollows, which are deep and wide creases in the terrain, and which quite often form their own wind conditions.
So the absolute fact is that you could be attempting to shoot across multiple different wind conditions.
And your Kestral only gave you the speed of the wind where you happen to be standing.
Yet we seem to have intelligent people who think differently.
Mind you i have no problem at all with different thinking people, obviously im one of them.
But i would like to see one of them prove me wrong with their wind reading skills by using one of those things at a location they have never been to before.

That's where detailed observation of any mirage or vegetation in the area will give you clues to different wind currents downrange it's the shooter who must put this all together!

 

[yobuck]

That's where detailed observation of any mirage or vegetation in the area will give you clues to different wind currents downrange it's the shooter who must put this all together!

I dont disagree, but in N C Pa. for example there as a rule wont be any vegetation on the hillsides, and not always any noticable mirage either.
What there will be however are lots of large trees which of coarse have lots and lots of branches. You can of coarse observe the trees and attempt to figure out the wind based upon that. But at best, it is a by gosh and by golly assessment.
And of coarse your bullet could be affected by hitting a tree branch also, which commonly happens.
Now something else to consider is that in Pa, sighter shots would be considered random shooting, which is illegal to do.
But first round misses happens all the time by all types of hunters, and therefore are not illegal.
Just saying this for general information purpose.

 

[waveslayer]

Try the Sig Kilo8, if you can get past the blue tint... no need for the kestrel anymore

 

[COBrad]

Well since ive admitted to never even seeing a Kestral, i do know pretty much how they read wind.
Which is i believe at the location where the Kestral is being held.
Ive even talked to a guy who tested his by holding it out of his vehicle window and comparing it with the speedometer.
But my question is that when your sitting on lookouts on top of a mountain, looking across a very wide valley, you will quite often see large birds working those valleys without ever flapping their wings.
So what keeps a big heavy bird like that up there?
I would assume the same thing that holds a guy up in the air while hang gliding in some of those same valleys.
Also, as anyone who has done any amount of glassing can tell you, the sidehill across the valley you are looking at will have hollows, which are deep and wide creases in the terrain, and which quite often form their own wind conditions.
So the absolute fact is that you could be attempting to shoot across multiple different wind conditions.
And your Kestral only gave you the speed of the wind where you happen to be standing.
Yet we seem to have intelligent people who think differently.
Mind you i have no problem at all with different thinking people, obviously im one of them.
But i would like to see one of them prove me wrong with their wind reading skills by using one of those things at a location they have never been to before.

It doesn't matter which tool we are using to measure wind, your points will always apply. As has been stated one must also observe the other indicators of wind activity. Practice and experience make for much better informed wind calls. I hunt elk across a canyon where shots range from 600 to 1300 yards. Obviously wind is far more critical at the longer ranges so if it's not almost dead calm and steady I don't take the long shots. I'm not that good a wind caller.

 

[yobuck]

It doesn't matter which tool we are using to measure wind, your points will always apply. As has been stated one must also observe the other indicators of wind activity. Practice and experience make for much better informed wind calls. I hunt elk across a canyon where shots range from 600 to 1300 yards. Obviously wind is far more critical at the longer ranges so if it's not almost dead calm and steady I don't take the long shots. I'm not that good a wind caller.

Well even on the longer shots, the important thing is that the wind is consistent and not frequently shifting.
When the conditions are such that you cant get 2 rounds to hit in the same location, or at least very close, then its time to pack it in.
Because the only thing most likely to happen wont be good.

 

[longrangebo]

Yes it is good Jim, and for sure we were all glad they got it.
But as an old fogy who has been seeing how things have changed in recent years, i have to chuckle about what is now deemed to be a must have piece of equipment in order to get good results.
And the absolute fact is that many of the must have things being used today arent really all that important at all.
But we do live in the modern world, and many have come of age in that world, and know nothing else.
And thats a shame.

Like you buddy I have never seen one either HaHaHa