Questions & thought's on 6mm for BR and prarrie poodles.

[goodgrouper]

Re: 6mm and prairie dogs......

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Lighter bullets=less bearing surface=less friction=less heat and fouling. And, better blowups.

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???
That is a nice theory, but unfortunately not founded much on actual truth. There are many factors that go into barrel heat and are too many to actually list here. And even if that were true, there are many heavy vld bullets with short bearing surfaces that yeild higher bc's than any light bullet for caliber. And a few of these (primarily heavy Amax and Berger VLD's) blow p-dogs up just as well as any fast little bullet.

My 6br barrel does have about 4.5 grains more powder going down it than my .223, but it heats up actually <font color="blue"> slower </font> because of many factors.

I currently shoot 105 Amax out of the 6 Dasher and I can attest that they blow up very violently-every bit as violently as the 40 grain Blitzkings or vmax I shoot out of my .223 at 4000 fps. Out at distance, the 6mm bullet actually will blow up stuff better because it retains it's velocity so much better.



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Plus, I hate lobbing slow bullets at small targets.

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Why? They don't kill dead enough for you?


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These numbers are conservative, and the 90gr is just a guess...I don't shoot heavy bullets. You can see the light bullets shoot flatter, give up very little in a 10mph wind, and are sure gonna have a better splat factor.

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I see you compare the best bullet on the market as far as bc goes in the 55 grain weight, but use one of the doggiest 90 grain bullets out there for bc. Try this, run a 105 grain Berger vld (bc of .565) at a measly 2950 and then run your 55 grain B.T. at 4000 or even 4100. Now look at the velocities at 675 yards. Enlightening isn't it?! The 55 throws out the parachute and slams on the brakes very quickly. Even though it starts out over 1000 fps faster at the muzzle, the 55 gets passed by at 675 yards by that stupid, slow, big bullet. It also gets blown in the wind considerably more. And to get that 55 grainer up to 4100 fps, you will have to burn a minimum of 43 grains of powder in a overbore 22 cal, and I only need 31 grains of powder to get 2950 with the 105 grain pill in my dasher!! That is 12 grains of powder difference! That will heat up a barrel much more noticeably than any friction concoction you give. Not to mention reducing your barrel life by as much as 2500 rounds!


Yep, the 6 br is the clear choice for high volume p-dog shooting. It is more accurate than the best .223, burns only 4-8 grains more powder, has higher bc bullets available, is very easy to load, has better standard deviations, and has more range. If you still want to shoot little bullets very fast, the BR <font color="red">is still the best choice. </font> I have seen 3900+ with the 55 grain noslers out of it from 2 different guns with only 36 grains of powder instead of 42 like my old 22-250AI used to use to get the same velocity.


The 6-250 is no doubt a good round (it is one of Steve Timm's favorite coyote calibers) but the necking up requires some time that you would not have to use when loading a BR. And the .243 and 6-250 have enough case taper to warrant frequent trimmings and FL sizings to give the high volume reloader blisters on his fingers! Why not just make life simple and buy a box of BR brass and just go shoot 1/4" groups right now?! I currently get more velocity from my 6 BR Dasher with 105's then I ever got with a .243 and I do it with less powder and WAY better accuracy!



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One thing...prairie dogs at 600yds sounds good, but in reality most are 300yds and less. It's really not necessary to shoot them further unless you specifically want to.

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I don't know where you're hunting, but in my honey holes, most the 300 yard dogs are in prairie heaven because they are the only ones that most guys can hit. Only the 500+ dogs are left and that is exactly the reason why I started trying to shoot farther than the next guy could. If you truly did have a honey hole where 300 yards and under were the norm, I would choose a .221 fireball over the .223 because it burns substantially less powder, and is a more efficient caliber at that range plain and simple.
A fast twist Br will shoot every dog in the eye from 50 yards to 500 yards with a lighter bullet (if that is the way you choose to go) and it will shoot every dog from 500 to 1300 by just changing to a VLD bullet. You can not beat that kind of versatility. Why build a gun for p-dogs and limit yourself to just 300 yard shooting when you can build a rifle that can and will do it all?


As for the 6mm-06, I think it is best left for those p-dogs at the .8 mile mark, and only shot sparingly unless you own a barrel company! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Ackman]

Re: 6mm and prairie dogs......

Of course there are factors involved in barrel heat...and yes a 6mm bore has more surface area to dissipate heat. But bearing surface equals friction and friction equals heat. More powder burned equals more heat. That's physics. It's a stupid thing to argue.

Of course there are VLD bullets without a whole lot of bearing surface, but look at the post. He says "90-ish" gr. bullets....not 105 or 107VLD's.

No, just "dead" isn't enough. Seeing fireworks is part of the fun. I like to see something more exciting than just "dead." Suit yourself on that one.

Bullets: I chose Ballistic tips because - 1)I shoot the 55's in a 6BR. 2)I shoot a lot of 70TNT's in 6mm, but used the 70BT because it has a higher BC and I figured there might be someone who'd say "nyah-nyah, you purposely used a doggy 70gr. bullet..." 3) I used the 90gr BT because the original post said "90-ish gr" bullet, not 105 or 107, and because the 55's and 70's were also Noslers. 4)And...I used Noslers because the manual was right there beside me and it listed all the BC's. That's why I chose the bullets I chose. Those numbers were meant to give a relative IDEA of what to expect, and I stated that twice in my post. And go back to his post again....he says out to 600yds. You can juggle numbers any way you please, but I was answering his question according to his conditions and had no ulterior motives.

I don't just shoot prairie dogs. I won't say where, but there are days when squirrels, rockchucks, prairie dogs, and a crow or two all fall under the gun on one trip. And maybe a badger or skunk. Often there'll be lots of PD targets where the main pd gun is a .17AH or .221, at way-way under 300yds. Anything 500 or 600yds would be because I didn't feel like driving closer. If people want to shoot stuff at longer distances, that's fine. But it's not necessary. I seriously doubt called eyeball shots at 500yds, or even considerably less. And guys who talk 1,000 or 1300yd prairie dog kills don't mention how many rounds it took to make that hit. Or how many of those hits were a leg or part of a butt, and the thing dragged itself into it's hole. No matter how accurate the gun, over that distance it doesn't take much wind to blow a bullet off enough to turn the shot into a wound or a miss.

 

[lead lobber]

Re: 6mm and prairie dogs......

Ackman,

Why do you doubt peoples skill at long range? If you do why are you post ing on longrange hunting? If you have never seen anyone make first round hits at 800,900, and even 1000 yards, trust me it is not that rare!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I have Been to a few tactical matches where guys make these hits with a 308 with boring regularity!! It doesn't take them 5 shots to walk one in. And this is with factory match ammo and shooting off their pack. Just because YOU can't doesn't mean it cant be done. Watched "some guy" on a video called the one mile shot hit the target with the very first shot. This was done prone with NO, I repeat NO benchrest!!!! He was only using a sling!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif My advice to you is to get out and watch someone who can hit something past three hundred yards. I am sure there are a few people here on this site who could show you how! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Guest]

Re: 6mm and prairie dogs......

Ona PD town a year or so ago...

I had the pleasure of shooting....

223AI
6mmBR
243
243AI
6mmAI
6/284

I did a PD at 1521 yards with the 6/284 hit it on the 6th shot... all of the shots fell withing 10" of it the 5th shot actually flipped it... he ran to the hole then popped his upper body back out and then he was promplty dispatched...

in shooting alof those calibers.. by far the 2 BEST were 223AI at 400 or less 40-45 gr V-maxs
the 243AI to 1K
shooting the 105 a-max or the 107 smk...

 

[goodgrouper]

Re: 6mm and prairie dogs......

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But bearing surface equals friction and friction equals heat.

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Ok, I was hoping I wouldn't have to get technical on you to prove my point but I can see it is necessary now. Copper is a guilding metal. It coats your barrel from shot one. THis results in the next bullet "sliding" down a wash of copper. Benchrest shooters shoot this condition without cleaning it out completely because the "wash" actually helps in accuracy. THey shoot flat base bullets with fairly large bearing surfaces. Varmint hunters usually shoot boat tail bullets with smaller bearing surfaces. If you take a flat base bullet with a 6 caliber ogive and a boat tail bullet with a 9 caliber ogive and compute the surface area and bearing surface area and then subtract the difference in the two bullets, the actual length of metal to metal contact (which is guilding contact) is so minute that it is insignificant. Then you get into heat transfers and conductivity of heat in a copper/zinc alloy to stainless steel and it even becomes more minute in actual heat creation. You are splitting hairs of the hair!



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a 6mm bore has more surface area to dissipate heat.

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That is actually a true statement but I will admit that it too is so minute that it wouldn't be worth using in this friendly argument. You would have to use instrumentation to even get a reading because the human hand probably wouldn't be able to detect such a small difference. It would be similiar to the heat dissipation/surface area comparison of a .750" diameter barrel to a .769" diameter barrel!
Again, splitting hairs.



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Of course there are VLD bullets without a whole lot of bearing surface, but look at the post. He says "90-ish" gr. bullets....not 105 or 107VLD's.


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I used these bullets in my example because they are even bigger and slower than the 90's. But if you want to run a 90-ish bullet, fine. Try a 95 grain Vld in there. It is even flatter and passes the smaller bullet even quicker. I was just trying to stack the odds in your favor.



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No, just "dead" isn't enough. Seeing fireworks is part of the fun.

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Agreed, but you really ought to actually see what a 105 amax does to a 400 yard prairie dog before you go on a forum with many other fellows who actually have shot that bullet at critters and tell them it won't obliterate in fine fashion!



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he says out to 600yds. You can juggle numbers any way you please, but I was answering his question according to his conditions and had no ulterior motives.


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I realize he said out to 600 yards, but I know of no one who hasn't built a gun for one intended range and at some point tried to shoot a little farther with it than what was originally planned. If you have a great p-dog colony at 700 yards instead of 600, why not go for it even though it is past your original limit IF the gun can do it? A 6 br can and will do it fine.
I just see no reason to limit yourself to a caliber that is limiting! Build a gun now with future planning in mind and then you won't waste money.



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If people want to shoot stuff at longer distances, that's fine. But it's not necessary.

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Man, are you sure you know where you are?! This ain't the Accurate reloading forum. We delight in the <font color="blue">LONG SHOT! </font> And besides, I hunt rock chucks in places where if you don't have a rifle to do long range, you can just go home because the lay of the land won't permit you to shoot less than 600 or 1000 yards. If you build the right rifle with the right ballistics, you can stay and play. Why choose a caliber that limits you if you can avoid it. I love the .223, but there are places where you need to take it AND another gun for longer ranges-not by choice but by circumstance. The 6 br is just more versatile plain and simple. And it also is great for closer ranges because of qualities already mentioned.


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I seriously doubt called eyeball shots at 500yds, or even considerably less.

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That was figuratively speaking. Although, I have seen guns and shooters who could do it. Several of my guns are capable of this at 300 yards, but it usually becomes head shots at longer ranges. The very first kill I had with my 6 BR dasher was a called head shot at 515 yards because that was all he was poking over the rock to shoot at. Oh, it also created red mist just fine with that 105 grain Amax.


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And guys who talk 1,000 or 1300yd prairie dog kills don't mention how many rounds it took to make that hit.

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Well, I am one of those guys. I am a member of the VHA 500, 1000, and 1500 yard clubs and also a kill at over 1 mile. I have re-qualified for the 1000 yard club at least 3 dozen times, and I can honestly tell you that there are days when it takes several, several shots to hit anything at 1k, but then there are days when I have hit stuff at that range before the "copper wash" had developed in my barrel!


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Or how many of those hits were a leg or part of a butt, and the thing dragged itself into it's hole. No matter how accurate the gun, over that distance it doesn't take much wind to blow a bullet off enough to turn the shot into a wound or a miss.

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Oh this is a bad one to bring up. Now you are debating ethics of 600 yard p-dog shooting versus 1000 yard p-dog shooting. Can you honestly tell me that you have never just blown the leg off a p-dog at 300 yards only to have it crawl down it's hole? If you are saying yes, then Accurate Reloading may just be the place for you!


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it doesn't take much wind to blow a bullet off enough to turn the shot into a wound or a miss.

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You said it! That is why I shoot the highest bc bullet I can i.e. -not the light bullets but the <font color="red"> HEAVY ONES!</font>

 

[Ackman]

Lead Lobber.................

A friend told me to check out some of the posts on here. My replies have been only to postings that aren't "longrange hunting"

Tactical matches don't really have anything to do with this. I'm talking apples, you're talking oranges. I have good friends who shoot highpower and tactical, and they're good. I've no doubt those people you watch are good too. Shooting gongs or whatever they shoot isn't the same as shooting beercan sized targets on the ground that have legs and move around. And a .308 with 168match bullets would be a very poor choice unless you just want to punch holes in them.

I didn't say I couldn't, or don't, shoot prairie dogs past 300. I said....they're mostly at 300 or under unless you want to shoot them further.

 

[Ackman]

Goodgrouper............

This is getting dumber and dumberer.

1)I don't know where you get your ideas about the desireabity of copper in the bore. Unless something has changed, benchrest shooters clean religiously. You mentioned getting a long hit before your barrel coppered. Is that the same copper you say the benchresters like to have?

2)Don't know where you get your data. I ran the numbers, this time with a 300yd. zero. At 700, that high BC 105 at 2950 had dropped 14" more at 700 than the 55, and at 1,000 it was still 10" lower. We're talking major trajectory, like 16'. Of course the VLD was much better in the wind, but to me it's moot because unless something is going fast enough, it'll just punch holes. My friend shoots at a range with 1,000yd capability. Behind the 1,000yd berm are trees. He's pulled 105's out of those trees that had gone in only about 1/2way...very little distortion. No matter what bullet it is, it's gotta be going fast enough to expand.

3) I said most prairie dogs could be shot at 300 or less unless you wanted to go further. PRAIRIE DOGS. Of course I shoot them further, but it's not necessary most of the time. And I shoot rockchucks further too, but the post was about PRAIRIE DOGS, and a gun for shooting all day. At distances TO 600yds.

4) I'm real impressed you're in all those VHA clubs. I've been a member since very early 90's and never cared about that stuff. And there've been many articles about guys shooting dogs at long range. Some are actually honest enough to say how many shots it took to connect. One very longwinded article was basically to showcase the guy's 1100yd shot, and he happened to mention that it took 72 rounds to hit. Next time, maybe it would've been 15, or 36. Throw enough bullets at something and you'll hit it eventually. Could be sooner, could be later. About all any of it proves is that it was time for that critter to be shot. At 1,000yds, misjudge the distance to that little thing on the ground by even 20 or 30yds and with a rainbow trajectory it's a big miss. A little wind between the muzzle and the target, again it's a solid miss.

5) Of course I have bad hits, everybody has. Parts blown off, guts hanging out, etc. I shoot it again.

6) Shooting is a funny thing. Lots of people let the ego get all wrapped up in what they can do - or would like to do - with a gun. There are whole bunch of guns in my gun room, and I shoot at stuff a long ways out when necessary. But I'd rather shoot once and hit once, also see launches and explosions.

7) Go back to the original post. He says 600yds and less, which means 110,195, 240, 410..... And he wants a gun that won't heat up quickly. And he wants something that blows things up more than a .223. He also considers the 22-250 to be just barely enough gun.

8) Not everything on this board is "longrange hunting". And I've only answered posts that weren't about...."longrange hunting."

I'm done with this. Ain't gonna debate apples and oranges no more.

 

[lead lobber]

Re: Lead Lobber.................

Sorry ackman, I must have missed the "short Range hunting" topics here. You showed me!!! I guess I better go spend more time diggin my 105 amaxes outta trees! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I also think I am gonna go with a 17 rem. Obviously the long range accuracy stick!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[308 nate]

Re: Goodgrouper............

O.K calm down guys,
We all have different standards as to what is ethical and what is not.
When it comes to varmints, I feel it is much more ethical to shoot them and miss every once in a while than to use poison or pump propane and oxygen down their holes and light it off. If you think either(poison or propane) method kills them fast your wrong! The ranch I used to work at never poisoned when I worked their, but a year after I left they started piosoning the praire dogs and left some of the poison oats in the back of the four wheeler in an airplane hanger in the yard.They turned the horses out into the yard, forgetting about the oats that were left on the four wheeler... There was nothing they could do about it after they realized the horses had eaten the oats, all they could do was watch them go down one by one, suffering the whole way(for days( They were working with vets trying to save them).10 of the 15 horses were killed, including a mare and the colt inside her. Two of those horses I had broke and trained (and were the best horses in he world..in my opinion) I HATE POISON!!!! <font color="black"> </font> I have no problem shooting at prairie dogs up to and past 1,000 yards and I will admit past 1,000 yds, I am under 50% but I guess this doesn't bother me.
In just about anything, there are people that will use and abuse, but I don't think this is the case with most the people on this board.

As far as Ackman and Goodgrouper,I can see both sides and respect both of them.

With my 6BR with the 55 gr. bullets I'm above 90% kill at up to 400 yds.with winds under 10 MPH.
FWIW
308nate

 

[goodgrouper]

Re: Lets steer this guy right huh?

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Unless something has changed, benchrest shooters clean religiously.

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Yes, they do after the match. But during the match (in between relays) they only clean down to the wash I talked about. But don't take my word for it, come on out and see for yourself. We will be having a match May 29th at the Hobble Creek gun club in the mouth of Hobble Creek canyon near Springville, Utah. I have friends in this club that will clean until they get just the right amount of pale blue on the patch and then stop cleaning to shoot the relay!


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2)Don't know where you get your data. I ran the numbers, this time with a 300yd. zero. At 700, that high BC 105 at 2950 had dropped 14" more at 700 than the 55, and at 1,000 it was still 10" lower. We're talking major trajectory, like 16'.

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I never said that the 105 was flatter at 1k. I said that it had more velocity. It does drop just a bit more, but the 105 isn't off by much. It does have more energy, and momentum also.


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Of course the VLD was much better in the wind, but to me it's moot because unless something is going fast enough, it'll just punch holes

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That is what I have been trying to tell you all along! THE 105 HAS MORE VELOCITY FROM 650 YARDS OUT!!



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He's pulled 105's out of those trees that had gone in only about 1/2way...very little distortion.

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I didn't realize that trees had the same effect on bullets as P-dogs and chucks do. Boy, where have I been!

I am going chuck hunting with my br tomorrow. I can't wait to show you how stinking little I know about the AMAX bullets when I take pics of the chucks that just got bruised to death. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif


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4) I'm real impressed you're in all those VHA clubs. I've been a member since very early 90's and never cared about that stuff.


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Well if you're only shooting to 600, I can see why. They are not for everyone.



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There are whole bunch of guns in my gun room,

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In case you haven't heard, I have a few myself and was once a follower of your line of thinking. But alas, I have graduated.



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7) Go back to the original post. He says 600yds and less, which means 110,195, 240, 410..... And he wants a gun that won't heat up quickly. And he wants something that blows things up more than a .223. He also considers the 22-250 to be just barely enough gun.


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Exactly. Is there one qualification there that the 6 br can't do? I think not. I believe I haven't wasted my time trying to help the poster pick the BR.



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I'm done with this. Ain't gonna debate apples and oranges no more

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Ah man, I was just getting warmed up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Let me end then with this. Both my professions that I work very hard at all day every day deal with nothing but educating the general public about firearms and ballistics, and helping them shoot better. I load for them, I teach them, I even take them hunting occasionally. In my job, it is my probably unattainable goal to rid the shooting world of myth, legend, and granpappy Smith's campfire bullcrap. You my friend have different views, and I respect that. But please don't buy into the redneck rhetoric and pass it around as the non-debateable truth. Facts are facts, and I have got plenty of them. And I am always ready to back them up. I gather all possible proof, and have it ready when I get into these friendly arguments. I keep a non-spendable Ulysses S. Grant in my wallet, and I DO PUT IT WHERE MY MOUTH IS! I think over time, I have proven that I know a little about what I am talking about as the Grant is still in my wallet.

Peace, love, and powder for all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


ps. Sorry 308Nate, I had to get that off my chest.

 

[budlight]

Re: Questions & thought\'s on 6mm for BR and prarrie poodles.

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The BC of 87, 90, 95 grain 243's (6mm cal) would make them acceptable if driven fast enough out of a 28 - 30 inch barrels to be very lethal in the 200 - 500 yards that I normally shoot at.

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I'm not a super shooter and I've met many people that can shoot a smaller group than me with the same gun. But I do shoot 1000's of rounds a year out at the BR range and a animal doesn't need a tight group. I can decifer what BS and what's not. I have a couple of really nice target guns with 6X24 56 mm scopes and a 5.5X22

My 200 - 500 range is a realistic max for me. When we discussed the day of the 500 round PP shoot last year. We both agreed that we had @90% kill ratio. Some times with the heat waves it's really hard to determine hit's and whether they jumped down a hole. So during cool down times I actually walked out to some questionables. Some were dead right in the mouth of the hole, but you sure couldn't tell when you were shooting or on the spotter scope watching.


My next question is Barrel length. Good Grouper I see that you have a 27.5 inch Dasher. I don't mind using 28-30 8.5 pound barrels. I have two already in .277 and .284. I've also hump lots of mounts over the years packing these near 18 pound guns.