Questions about going from new brass to once fired!

[Bob Wright]

Doesn't matter if it was factory or custom, every belted magnum I have loaded for, virgin brass headspace has changed significantly. Between .014-.023". I bump shoulders back .002-.003" when resizing just like any other cartridge after that.

Lance is correct. I also found headspace became uniform after annealing rounds I had fired 2 or 3 times. (Nosler brass)
Final shoulder movement was .019 from cartridge head to shoulder datum. Its just the way the parent case was designed and carried over to its other chamberings.

 

[ShtrRdy]

So you were not talking about chamber head space as in the length from the datum to the bolt face, you are talking about something I do not have. My cases do not have head space, my cases have a length from the datum to the bolt face. The difference between the two give me clearance. there was another question about head space, most confusing. I do not have an infatuation with head space. I know about the L Willis digital head space gage and the case head space gage and then there is Hornady-Sinclair renamed comparator.

I Checked SAAMI again, one of the other times I tried to get BART. B. to explain to me where SAAMI says the case has head space; nowhere in their drawings do they claim the case has head space. He called SAAMI and it did not get better. And then there was the tool seller that got better billing through google if he named his tools Head Space this and or that. I did not have a chance because reloaders do not understand how google works.

F. Guffey

After that reloaders had to assume everyone knew what the other was talking about. So I ask.

You really should take a closer look at a SAAMI drawing. It will show you where the HEADSPACE dimension is.

 

[Greyfox]

I agree with comments about testing the difference. IMO, it's dependent on the difference in dimensions between the chamber, the new brass and the fired brass; as well as the particular brass. I have two 6.5x47L competition rifles that are chambered to the dimension of new Lapua. Given the exceptional reproducibility of the brass, and cartridge design, as well as no material difference between in dimension between fired and unfired brass, the velocity, accuracy, and ES is statistically insignificant when tested to 1000 yards. 100pc brass cases will last the life of the barrel. Given the high volumes I shoot with these rifles, this is very convenient.

 

[fguffey]

You really should take a closer look at a SAAMI drawing. It will show you where the HEADSPACE dimension is.

SAAMI uses the symbol for head space on the chamber drawing, SAAMI does not show the symbol for head space on the case drawing. Reloaders assume the case has head space. The reloaders that understands the case does not have head space is not the one that is contributing to all of this confusion.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

Welcome to the world of Super F. Guffey, he can jump tall reloading presses in a single bound.
And F. Guffey headspace is also the distance between your ears and your ability to use this space.
And when reloaders talk about cartridge headspace they have the ability to understand the term.
And finally F. Guffey there are thousands of reloader that are very tired of you polluting forums with your fecal debris and endless rants.

The funny part is I have a Hornady Headspace Gauge.............

HORNADY - LOCK-N-LOAD™ HEADSPACE GAUGE TOOL
https://www.brownells.com/reloading...ck-n-load-headspace-gauge-tool-prod35168.aspx

This affordable headspace gauge set from Hornady Lock-N-Load Products (formerly Stoney Point) allows the handloader to measure changes to the headspace of cartridges with a dial/digital caliper. Different bushing sizes (depending on cartridge family) insert into the Hornady Lock-N-Load Comparator Body, which attaches to a caliper. This handloader can then measure the changes between fired and sized brass. this enables the handloader to adjust his sizing dies for a proper fit in his chamber. When a handloader oversizes his cases it can cause excessive headspace problems, one of which is to shorten the life of the brass.

The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge Set will allow the user to measure brass from the case head to the datum line on the case shoulder. Five bushing sizes allow you to measure the headspace on most bottleneck cartridges from 17 Remington through the belted magnums. The bushings are sold either with the Comparator Body or without the Comparator Body (for those who already have one).

 

[fguffey]

Doesn't matter if it was factory or custom, every belted magnum I have loaded for, virgin brass headspace has changed significantly. Between .014-.023". I bump shoulders back .002-.003" when resizing just like any other cartridge after that.

"Every belted Magnum" and then "I bump"; I could ask you how you do that but I do not believe you would understand the question. I have cam over presses, all of my cam over presses 'bump' meaning 'bump is a function of the press. I also have presses that do not cam over, my presses that do not cam over are not bump presses but everyday I read "I bump". I know, I am suppose to understand what you mean but I will tell you that is not easy when you do not know what you mean.

You are assumomg you can move the shoulder back and then when you get good you can bump the shoulder back; I have tried, I have seriously tried to move the shoulder back and found it impossible and I understand 'bump' sounds cool if you do not think about it.

Belted magnum and head space: Again and again the belted magnum head spaces on the the belt, If the belt head spaces on the belt the case head is not moving forward from .014" to .023". .014" to .023" is a lot of case travel. I have no ideal why it is impossible for reloaders to understand the obvious! The case did not stretch, reloaders forget the belted case head spaces on the belt.

The belted case does not have 2 head spaces, once the case head spaces on the belt the case is held to the rear by the belt, when that happens the case body fills the chamber. That should be simple enough but reloaders believe the shoulder moves forward agains the shoulder of the chamber. If that was true the case would have to stretch between the case head and case body.

The shoulder the reloader started with is not the same shoulder he finished with because the case body expanded to fill the chamber. Again; it is not good for a case to stretch .014" to .023", the difficult thing to get a reloaders to understand is the case did not stretch .014" to .023". And if they can figure a way to understand the shoulder did not move forward they can get themselves on the way to understanding what is happening.

And there are simple little tools a reloader could use that would help them to understand but it seems they had rather argue.

F. Guffey

 

[Blaster01]

Probably just going to delete this thread since instead of getting useful information, over half of the responses are people arguing with a guy who's claim is based off the actual meaning of a word when we all know what the word means when we say it. F. Guffey, this post is not about any sort of belted mag, it's about a 28 nosler. Either keep that **** to yourself and answer my question with some useful information, or quit responding please.

 

[West Calamus]

Too late, you should have measured before and again after; and then the question, measure what?

I have one rifle with with a chamber that is field reject length + .002". When I fire a round in that chamber the case has to fill the chamber from the case head to the shoulder of the chamber before things get serious . It is not something a reloader would think about but it takes time for the case to expand when filling the chamber. After the case has formed to the chamber there is no time lost when using the once fired case unless the reloader decides to start over by full length sizing the case back to minimum length.

F. Guffey

"Full length sizing the case back to minimum length" SAY WHAT? Sorry Blaster for straying off subject.

 

[brguide]

i have noticed with smaller case like 6br, 6.5 creedmoor, ect the change in powder weight ie .5 to 1 grain is greater than with the larger caliper (ultra magnums like 28) where in the 28 if you change .5 to 1 grain speed does snot increase much. I even went to using hornady brass (i know but dang for 24.99 for 20 cases at midway **SALE NO LONGER GOING ON**) from using nosler brass which was a big difference in weight and water capacity but it only changed 1 grain in powder to get the same speeds and the cases were 10 grains difference. With the 28 i would not worry much about it. I shoot new brass and use same powder charge in once fired, the only thing that changes is groups improve if any. BTW the nosler brass primer pockets blew out before the hornady did.

 

[Flintlock shooter]

I preface this by saying that I don't hunt with centerfire rifles. I do however compete with them. That means that I end up reloading/shooting 1000's of round a year. To do that I need my brass to last for many firings. All that to say this: When I use virgin brass, I develop a load that is a much lower powder charge than what I normally load. The reason I do this is because I feel like that first firing is the hardest on the brass, namely the primer pockets. It still fire forms that brass just fine, but I can also get 20+ firings on most of it. I use the virgin brass loads for practice mostly, or occasionally for smaller one day matches. I know this isn't exactly on your OP topic, but didn't know if many had thought about this approach.

 

[fguffey]

"Full length sizing the case back to minimum length" SAY WHAT? S

Perrett, not my intention to send one over your head or as the man said, "I didn't want to miss you". I do not have a clue what reloaders expect when the size a case. I believe they should understand the chamber is go-gage length. I believe they should have an ideal what the length of a factory, over the counter, new ammo should be from the datum/shoulder to the case head is. When I size a case I am not surprised when the case length from the datum/shoulder to the case head is correct. I do know if my chamber is go-gage length from the datum to the case head.

When I chamber a round I know if the bolt will close, if the bolt will not close I know 'by how much' the bolt fails to close in thousandths. A full length sized case will chamber in a go-gage length chamber. When I full length size a case I am returning the case to minimum length from the datum/shoulder to the case head. And then there are hints like the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder, if the die does not make it to the shell holder the case did not get sized/full length sized or returned to minimum length.

I understand reloaders do not have cases that are different in length from the datum to the case head, WHY? I do not know. I have cases that are .005" shorter than a go-gage length chamber from the datum to the case head. As you indicated by "SAY WHAT! ?" you have never measured the length of a factory over the counter new ammo out of the box. I have And I will tell you I have been impressed with the factory ammo.

Again, I have measured before and again after. I have never found a factory loaded, new over the counter round that was too short from the shoulder/datum to the case head. I can only guess it is time for the experts make up a name for the length of a case from the factory, again it was not my intention to send one over your head and or miss you but my life is simpler because I have cases that are full length sized to minimum length. After that some one should assign a number to the measurement.

F. Guffey

 

[Len Backus]

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