Problem with calcs for 4dof and strelok

26Reload

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I curious if the all righteous Vortex answer is correct...."that we would never make the mistake of a moa cap on a mil scope"....
Lifetime warranty...good luck...
After 35 years of buying tires and such from LesSchwabs...new punk manager wasn't willing to order me a set of tires to my liking...only wanted to sell me what he wanted to....well..i put his tires on my Tacoma and lost 100 miles per tank of fuel...
I went to Discount..ordered what I wanted and returned the now used tires to schwabs....will not go back.....'pisonum'....
 

jdavistx

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I curious if the all righteous Vortex answer is correct...."that we would never make the mistake of a moa cap on a mil scope"....
Lifetime warranty...good luck...
After 35 years of buying tires and such from LesSchwabs...new punk manager wasn't willing to order me a set of tires to my liking...only wanted to sell me what he wanted to....well..i put his tires on my Tacoma and lost 100 miles per tank of fuel...
I went to Discount..ordered what I wanted and returned the now used tires to schwabs....will not go back.....'pisonum'....
Having been the one who is trading emails with the Vortex guy he said the following, and I quote:

"I would not expect that type of mistake to have happened, however if you wanted to check it out you could run a tracking test on the scope at 100 yards. If you zero the scope then dial up 10 MOA it should hit 10.5 inches above the zero (provided you are at exactly 100 yards). If it was MRAD it would hit 14.4 inches above the zero. By running the tracking test at 100 yards it will remove all of the variables of the ballistic calculator and determine if the scope is working properly."

He's been great. The same recommendation was previously made by a member here. The OP needs to test it. Sorry you had the tire problem. Discount has always done me right.
 

BK6x47L

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I have been dancing all around the problem from data entry, apps to scope. If this is a mrad to MOA conversion problem and adjusting down 6.25MOA to get on target, it’s 59” (5' high) @900 yards, as reported. If you were adjusting down 6.25mrad, it’s 203” @900 yards and you're kicking up dirt 12 feet low.

It can be rough, but no attitude here, just math. Besides, what the heck are you going to do with COVID?. Post and push lead. :)

We are hypothesizing that this is not a MOA to Mil conversion problem, but moa urret caps on a mil turret. 6.25 moa is roughly 55" at 25 clicks. 25 clicks on a mil turret is 2.5 mils. turret reads Moa, but is clicking mils
 

ndking1126

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I stand by statement on the math however. The OP certainly seems intelligent enough to know that if he looks at the turret he would have noticed that there are 4 hash marks, and not 10, so I am going to assume he has a scope with MIL internals and an MOA turret.

I plugged the provided environmentals and velocity into JBM Ballistics and got 171.5" of drop at 905 yards with a 200 yard zero. (I assumed the sight height was 1.8")

Because of MIL internals, at 100 yards, each click will move his impact .36" which works out to be 3.258" at 905 yards.

When the OP dials up 12.25 MOA (according to the cap), he turned the turret 49 clicks.

49 clicks* 3.258" of POI change per click = 159.6" @ 905 yards. 171.5" (actual) - 159.6" (calculated)= 11.9" of variance. So basically our calculators missed by 1 foot. When you factor in a little rounding, possibility of environmentals not being spot on perfect (like pressure already discussed), and the fact that ballistic calculators aren't exactly perfect either, 1 foot at 905 yards is still pretty close. That calculates the number of clicks actually needed was only off by 3.5. To me it adds up.
 

jdavistx

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We are hypothesizing that this is not a MOA to Mil conversion problem, but moa urret caps on a mil turret. 6.25 moa is roughly 55" at 25 clicks. 25 clicks on a mil turret is 2.5 mils. turret reads Moa, but is clicking mils
I understand what you are saying.. My initial thinking was also if you turn a MOA cap on a MRAD scope, one would have seen some misalignment by landing between the lines. But Vortex says no, which is confusing to me.

Nevertheless, the way to solve (confirm) this problem is for the OP to run a scope tracking test and report results. Zero at 100 yards. Click up 10 MOA. If the shot is 10.5" high, the scope is MOA and everything is good. If the shot is 14.4" high, it's MRAD with MOA caps.. :)
 
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When you open the app there is a button for 4.dof and 1 for BC calculator. I punched in the same numbers on both parts of the app and they came out with different come UPS
delete the gun snd then re enter it as a new rifle. I had similar problem. the reset/ back to default solved the problem.

it is just a computer program and they get hung up at times.
 

Lynn Coleman

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I hope he let's us know. Operator error is not a problem. We all do it. The good news is that there are plenty of shooters here that get together to solve problems. Next...
I’m worn out waiting/thinking/what iffing, hopefully we get a response from op
 

BK6x47L

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I understand what you are saying.. My initial thinking was also if you turn a MOA cap on a MRAD scope, one would have seen some misalignment by landing between the lines. But Vortex says no, which is confusing to me.

Nevertheless, the way to solve (confirm) this problem is for the OP to run a scope tracking test and report results. Zero at 100 yards. Click up 10 MOA. If the shot is 10.5" high, the scope is MOA and everything is good. If the shot is 14.4" high, it's MRAD with MOA caps.. :)
I totally agree and we are on the same page. I had the same thought regarding lines being off during the turret dialing. But....if the OP only dialed the one distance and the marks lined up then, he may not have noticed. I would think that I would have noticed, but ya never know. Sounds like a new scope getting put to work to me. Like several of us have said, the amount of error is too coincidental to the amount of mil clicks/dope to discount.
 

jdavistx

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I stand by statement on the math however. The OP certainly seems intelligent enough to know that if he looks at the turret he would have noticed that there are 4 hash marks, and not 10, so I am going to assume he has a scope with MIL internals and an MOA turret.

I plugged the provided environmentals and velocity into JBM Ballistics and got 171.5" of drop at 905 yards with a 200 yard zero. (I assumed the sight height was 1.8")

Because of MIL internals, at 100 yards, each click will move his impact .36" which works out to be 3.258" at 905 yards.

When the OP dials up 12.25 MOA (according to the cap), he turned the turret 49 clicks.

49 clicks* 3.258" of POI change per click = 159.6" @ 905 yards. 171.5" (actual) - 159.6" (calculated)= 11.9" of variance. So basically our calculators missed by 1 foot. When you factor in a little rounding, possibility of environmentals not being spot on perfect (like pressure already discussed), and the fact that ballistic calculators aren't exactly perfect either, 1 foot at 905 yards is still pretty close. That calculates the number of clicks actually needed was only off by 3.5. To me it adds up.
I took a simplistic view. 6.25MOA high (a 5' POI adjustment, independent of all other variables) @ 900 yards. If you think you are adjusting MOA but actually MRAD, it seems to be a big difference at POI.

Your analysis looks thoughtful and I'll try and replicate what you did. Thank you.

I tried to apply the tracking test concepts at 900 yards. The final answer lies with the OP after he does a standard scope tracking test at 100 yards. Zero is set to 100 yards, adjust up 10 MOA (everything else being the same), the shot will be a 10.5" high for MOA vs 14.4" high for MRAD. If the scope is incorrectly built, there will be a 4" difference between expected and actual results. Should only take 1 shot after zero is set to see if it's the issue.
 

jdavistx

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I totally agree and we are on the same page. I had the same thought regarding lines being off during the turret dialing. But....if the OP only dialed the one distance and the marks lined up then, he may not have noticed. I would think that I would have noticed, but ya never know. Sounds like a new scope getting put to work to me. Like several of us have said, the amount of error is too coincidental to the amount of mil clicks/dope to discount.
Yes. If you shoot 0.3 MOA @ 200 yards as stated, what the heck went wrong at 900?
 

Steve gavette

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After 35 years of buying tires and such from LesSchwabs...
And this has what to do with Vortex?

My brother has a Vortex spotting scope. He was taking it out of the case and dropped it on concrete, busted the eyepiece off. Shipped it off, they sent him a new one. Worked well for him...
 

jdavistx

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And this has what to do with Vortex?

My brother has a Vortex spotting scope. He was taking it out of the case and dropped it on concrete, busted the eyepiece off. Shipped it off, they sent him a new one. Worked well for him...
I have a 27-60X85 Razor and did the same. Tripod got tipped over so it was at about 5' high on concrete. Fortunately, it didn't break. Had the Neoprene sleeve and end caps on. Not even a nick. Still works great. I didn't get upset due to the warranty but don't want to do it again. :)
 

26Reload

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And this has what to do with Vortex?

My brother has a Vortex spotting scope. He was taking it out of the case and dropped it on concrete, busted the eyepiece off. Shipped it off, they sent him a new one. Worked well for him...
Just think of it this way.....if your accidents didn't happen things wouldn't cost so much...and a person could afford to buy better items...
Meaning...taking advantage of a warranty for damages caused by normal use..versus destroying things accidentally and expecting them to cover for accidents is ludicrous....might as well line up for socialized medicine....then go ride your skateboard and break your back and expect welfare to take care of you for rest of your life.....
 

jdavistx

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Green Valley, AZ
Just think of it this way.....if your accidents didn't happen things wouldn't cost so much...and a person could afford to buy better items...
Meaning...taking advantage of a warranty for damages caused by normal use..versus destroying things accidentally and expecting them to cover for accidents is ludicrous....might as well line up for socialized medicine....then go ride your skateboard and break your back and expect welfare to take care of you for rest of your life.....
If they learn about what breaks as opposed to it being thrown in the trash, they can make better products. Maybe there is a method to their madness? I think they make very good products at a competitive price.

You just got done bashing "the all righteous Vortex" earlier today, and then talked about Les Schwab and Discount tire? What is the real issue here? What are the facts that drive this opinion?

If you don't like them, fine. Buy something else. It's a free country. This is not the place for discussions about tires, socialized medicine and riding skateboards.
 

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