Primer pocket truing

Can you show me the results of your testing on this? How are you measuring your pocket depth, and can you show me a picture of that device and it's setup/use?


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Can you show me the results of your testing on this? How are you measuring your pocket depth, and can you show me a picture of that device and it's setup/use?


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Hornady Primer Pocket Uniformer. Mitutoyo Caliper. I did the testing awhile back, recorded results, but did not the target once I was satisified with the result. Process: Loaded 40 rounds, Hornady Match .308 brass, fully prepped, 43.5 gr IMR 4064 , Sierra 168 TMK. 10 Pocket Trued and Primer Hole reamed.. 10 With cleaned pockets, no additional prep. 10 with pocket just cleaned, using RCB wire Pocket Hole Cleaner. 10 with Flash Hole reamed only. 10 with Primer pocket trued only. Range 200 yards. They were all sub MOA, but the group with the full primer pocket prep was slightly better.
 
Who is claiming it doesn't matter?


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You are claiming "Most people do more harm than good with pocket uniforming tools."
Others say it doesn't matter.
So precision seating primers in pockets must not matter either.
Which in my case, I must true up the depth of the primer pocket and the radius must be lessened to get a primer to seat below the head. Why not make them all exactly the same so I don't end to spend a bunch of money on a primer seating tool that adjusts within .001?
If the primers seat to the bottom the same on every piece of brass after uniforming them with a fixed cutter the only variation then is the height of the primer.
Whether it affects accuracy, most people say no on this thread. Ok. But if primers are high or low when it goes against the bolt, or you have to cam over the entire cartridge in battery due to a proud primer, that doesn't fly with me.
 
I deburr flash hole and call it good.Do not want to enlarge primer pocket at all.not a long range contest shooter just a coyote hunter
The primer tool I have, RCBS, cannot machine the inner pocket diameter. It's a bottom cutter. It's also slightly undersized of the Saami spec on the diameter. My cutter mics at .2078, .0007 under the minimum dia for the pocket diameter.
 

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Hornady Primer Pocket Uniformer. Mitutoyo Caliper. I did the testing awhile back, recorded results, but did not the target once I was satisified with the result. Process: Loaded 40 rounds, Hornady Match .308 brass, fully prepped, 43.5 gr IMR 4064 , Sierra 168 TMK. 10 Pocket Trued and Primer Hole reamed.. 10 With cleaned pockets, no additional prep. 10 with pocket just cleaned, using RCB wire Pocket Hole Cleaner. 10 with Flash Hole reamed only. 10 with Primer pocket trued only. Range 200 yards. They were all sub MOA, but the group with the full primer pocket prep was slightly better.
After rolling this thread around in my head all day, and reading this post... I can come up with no realistic way I can participate in the discussion without seeming like I'm demeaning others contributions. It's unfortunate, because I don't want to do that, but at the same time how in the world can I politely say that if sub-moa at 200 is the delta by which we're defining success of as nuanced a technique or process as this, how can we learn anything at all? Most factory rifles with inexpensive factory ammo can best that. I've honestly no idea how I can even frame that discussion without sounding arrogant or diminishing other posters. How can the determination of a process or variable be defined as positive or negative, if we can't first all get on the same page about what level of performance constitutes whether the process or variable matters?

This topic, like so many others, carries a drastically skewed participant ratio. The number of people that enjoy discussing it, to the number of people that have adequately run it to ground sufficient to have drawn a conclusion, is quite unbalanced. I've spent more effort, money, and time on it than anyone I'm aware of... and until I can think of some other way to demonstrate that beyond what I already have, I just don't know how to approach this other than specific 1-on-1 interaction where the person I'm discussing it with can prove they are invested in a positive outcome.

You are claiming "Most people do more harm than good with pocket uniforming tools."
Others say it doesn't matter.
So precision seating primers in pockets must not matter either.
Which in my case, I must true up the depth of the primer pocket and the radius must be lessened to get a primer to seat below the head. Why not make them all exactly the same so I don't end to spend a bunch of money on a primer seating tool that adjusts within .001?
If the primers seat to the bottom the same on every piece of brass after uniforming them with a fixed cutter the only variation then is the height of the primer.
Whether it affects accuracy, most people say no on this thread. Ok. But if primers are high or low when it goes against the bolt, or you have to cam over the entire cartridge in battery due to a proud primer, that doesn't fly with me.

Exactly the kind of thing I'm speaking about above. At no point did I claim it didn't matter, or anything of the sort. Some extremely critical aspects of this you're not understanding, while simultaneously creating a straw man argument by twisting my words. Suppose you're correct, and you uniform the pockets flawlessly and do not create the very variation you are trying to eliminate. You claim this lets you just seat primers by feel, without the need of an adjustable tool, allowing them to all go to the same spot, correct?

What about the fact that a typical lot number of CCI primers will have an anvil protrusion variance of sometimes over 5 thousandths? Sometimes its actually closer to ten thousandths! Are you claiming that variance doesn't matter, or that you can uniform it by feel? Even if that were not so, are you claiming that you can defy the laws of physics and somehow feel the anvil hit in situations with tight pockets or oversize primers or both, in which the friction differential between the primer cup and the primer pocket is greater than the force of the anvil movement?

The fact that my work on this subject can be dismissed so easily, precludes my participation at all. I have no obligation to anyone here that supersedes my obligation to the truth. When my methodology, products, patents, videos, articles, and all previous works for the past decade on ignition systems can be reduced to that ridiculous straw man argument... there just isn't anything more to be said. I most certainly won't be drawn into an argument to defend things I didn't say.

Some people need a tremendous amount of experience before they accept something as truth. Other people will accept something just because it happened to pass through their mind one time.

Who am I to judge?

Peoples performances on target tell me everything I need to know about their ability to discern what is true and what is not. The next time I see a thread like this, I pray I have the ability to ignore it. Today, I clearly failed.


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After rolling this thread around in my head all day, and reading this post... I can come up with no realistic way I can participate in the discussion without seeming like I'm demeaning others contributions. It's unfortunate, because I don't want to do that, but at the same time how in the world can I politely say that if sub-moa at 200 is the delta by which we're defining success of as nuanced a technique or process as this, how can we learn anything at all? Most factory rifles with inexpensive factory ammo can best that. I've honestly no idea how I can even frame that discussion without sounding arrogant or diminishing other posters. How can the determination of a process or variable be defined as positive or negative, if we can't first all get on the same page about what level of performance constitutes whether the process or variable matters?

This topic, like so many others, carries a drastically skewed participant ratio. The number of people that enjoy discussing it, to the number of people that have adequately run it to ground sufficient to have drawn a conclusion, is quite unbalanced. I've spent more effort, money, and time on it than anyone I'm aware of... and until I can think of some other way to demonstrate that beyond what I already have, I just don't know how to approach this other than specific 1-on-1 interaction where the person I'm discussing it with can prove they are invested in a positive outcome.



Exactly the kind of thing I'm speaking about above. At no point did I claim it didn't matter, or anything of the sort. Some extremely critical aspects of this you're not understanding, while simultaneously creating a straw man argument by twisting my words. Suppose you're correct, and you uniform the pockets flawlessly and do not create the very variation you are trying to eliminate. You claim this lets you just seat primers by feel, without the need of an adjustable tool, allowing them to all go to the same spot, correct?

What about the fact that a typical lot number of CCI primers will have an anvil protrusion variance of sometimes over 5 thousandths? Sometimes its actually closer to ten thousandths! Are you claiming that variance doesn't matter, or that you can uniform it by feel? Even if that were not so, are you claiming that you can defy the laws of physics and somehow feel the anvil hit in situations with tight pockets or oversize primers or both, in which the friction differential between the primer cup and the primer pocket is greater than the force of the anvil movement?

The fact that my work on this subject can be dismissed so easily, precludes my participation at all. I have no obligation to anyone here that supersedes my obligation to the truth. When my methodology, products, patents, videos, articles, and all previous works for the past decade on ignition systems can be reduced to that ridiculous straw man argument... there just isn't anything more to be said. I most certainly won't be drawn into an argument to defend things I didn't say.

Some people need a tremendous amount of experience before they accept something as truth. Other people will accept something just because it happened to pass through their mind one time.

Who am I to judge?

Peoples performances on target tell me everything I need to know about their ability to discern what is true and what is not. The next time I see a thread like this, I pray I have the ability to ignore it. Today, I clearly failed.


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Greg
Good idea to IGNORE a post like this in the future.
Thanks
 
After rolling this thread around in my head all day, and reading this post... I can come up with no realistic way I can participate in the discussion without seeming like I'm demeaning others contributions. It's unfortunate, because I don't want to do that, but at the same time how in the world can I politely say that if sub-moa at 200 is the delta by which we're defining success of as nuanced a technique or process as this, how can we learn anything at all? Most factory rifles with inexpensive factory ammo can best that. I've honestly no idea how I can even frame that discussion without sounding arrogant or diminishing other posters. How can the determination of a process or variable be defined as positive or negative, if we can't first all get on the same page about what level of performance constitutes whether the process or variable matters?

This topic, like so many others, carries a drastically skewed participant ratio. The number of people that enjoy discussing it, to the number of people that have adequately run it to ground sufficient to have drawn a conclusion, is quite unbalanced. I've spent more effort, money, and time on it than anyone I'm aware of... and until I can think of some other way to demonstrate that beyond what I already have, I just don't know how to approach this other than specific 1-on-1 interaction where the person I'm discussing it with can prove they are invested in a positive outcome.



Exactly the kind of thing I'm speaking about above. At no point did I claim it didn't matter, or anything of the sort. Some extremely critical aspects of this you're not understanding, while simultaneously creating a straw man argument by twisting my words. Suppose you're correct, and you uniform the pockets flawlessly and do not create the very variation you are trying to eliminate. You claim this lets you just seat primers by feel, without the need of an adjustable tool, allowing them to all go to the same spot, correct?

What about the fact that a typical lot number of CCI primers will have an anvil protrusion variance of sometimes over 5 thousandths? Sometimes its actually closer to ten thousandths! Are you claiming that variance doesn't matter, or that you can uniform it by feel? Even if that were not so, are you claiming that you can defy the laws of physics and somehow feel the anvil hit in situations with tight pockets or oversize primers or both, in which the friction differential between the primer cup and the primer pocket is greater than the force of the anvil movement?

The fact that my work on this subject can be dismissed so easily, precludes my participation at all. I have no obligation to anyone here that supersedes my obligation to the truth. When my methodology, products, patents, videos, articles, and all previous works for the past decade on ignition systems can be reduced to that ridiculous straw man argument... there just isn't anything more to be said. I most certainly won't be drawn into an argument to defend things I didn't say.

Some people need a tremendous amount of experience before they accept something as truth. Other people will accept something just because it happened to pass through their mind one time.

Who am I to judge?

Peoples performances on target tell me everything I need to know about their ability to discern what is true and what is not. The next time I see a thread like this, I pray I have the ability to ignore it. Today, I clearly failed.


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Sorry for your comments but we both provided data. Both in his test and mine in providing specs, and actual measurements. If you can't accept that as a decent counter argument to a very simple process, then just leave it. I'm happy with my reload performance which matches your accuracy requirements. So we'll agree to disagree. That's all.
 
After rolling this thread around in my head all day, and reading this post... I can come up with no realistic way I can participate in the discussion without seeming like I'm demeaning others contributions. It's unfortunate, because I don't want to do that, but at the same time how in the world can I politely say that if sub-moa at 200 is the delta by which we're defining success of as nuanced a technique or process as this, how can we learn anything at all? Most factory rifles with inexpensive factory ammo can best that. I've honestly no idea how I can even frame that discussion without sounding arrogant or diminishing other posters. How can the determination of a process or variable be defined as positive or negative, if we can't first all get on the same page about what level of performance constitutes whether the process or variable matters?

This topic, like so many others, carries a drastically skewed participant ratio. The number of people that enjoy discussing it, to the number of people that have adequately run it to ground sufficient to have drawn a conclusion, is quite unbalanced. I've spent more effort, money, and time on it than anyone I'm aware of... and until I can think of some other way to demonstrate that beyond what I already have, I just don't know how to approach this other than specific 1-on-1 interaction where the person I'm discussing it with can prove they are invested in a positive outcome.



Exactly the kind of thing I'm speaking about above. At no point did I claim it didn't matter, or anything of the sort. Some extremely critical aspects of this you're not understanding, while simultaneously creating a straw man argument by twisting my words. Suppose you're correct, and you uniform the pockets flawlessly and do not create the very variation you are trying to eliminate. You claim this lets you just seat primers by feel, without the need of an adjustable tool, allowing them to all go to the same spot, correct?

What about the fact that a typical lot number of CCI primers will have an anvil protrusion variance of sometimes over 5 thousandths? Sometimes its actually closer to ten thousandths! Are you claiming that variance doesn't matter, or that you can uniform it by feel? Even if that were not so, are you claiming that you can defy the laws of physics and somehow feel the anvil hit in situations with tight pockets or oversize primers or both, in which the friction differential between the primer cup and the primer pocket is greater than the force of the anvil movement?

The fact that my work on this subject can be dismissed so easily, precludes my participation at all. I have no obligation to anyone here that supersedes my obligation to the truth. When my methodology, products, patents, videos, articles, and all previous works for the past decade on ignition systems can be reduced to that ridiculous straw man argument... there just isn't anything more to be said. I most certainly won't be drawn into an argument to defend things I didn't say.

Some people need a tremendous amount of experience before they accept something as truth. Other people will accept something just because it happened to pass through their mind one time.

Who am I to judge?

Peoples performances on target tell me everything I need to know about their ability to discern what is true and what is not. The next time I see a thread like this, I pray I have the ability to ignore it. Today, I clearly failed.


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Brass, bullet seating, primer brand, powder type, powder load, twist rate, harmonics, primer seating, neck tension, ect matter, but primer pockets don't?
So of the 10 items of importance where does primer truing and seating rank in importance?

It has to rank. But where?
For me it's near or bottom of the listed.
The other variables have more effect on overall outcome. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter but it's at the bottom of the heap. 2-3% can't even shoot the difference
 
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So of the 10 items of importance where does primer truing and seating rank in importance?

It has to rank. But where?
For me it's near or bottom of the listed.
The other variables have more effect on overall outcome. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter but it's at the bottom of the heap. 2-3% can even shoot the difference
Doesn't have to RANK anywhere.
If you want to uniform Primer Pockets or don't your choice.
I do it because I want to. No one on this thread said this is the best thing to do and you should do it, but some reloaders that don't do it- say it is not worth doing.
I respect that-To each his or her own.
Put a question to 10 reloaders and you may get 10 different answers.
 
Well, Er, Uh? I feel your post should be answered, particuarly since you do not apparently like the answer I gave on MY testing.. What exactly are you trying to say? Your post is almost incomprehensible to me. Skewed participation? That seems normal since it is only being of interest by those with an interest or experience in the subject. I never saw anything you posted. I simply answered the question you asked. In my case, I picked a "200 yard delta" because I did not have access to one longer than that, and I did not want to try it 100 yards. So I will elaborate - I am shooting a Savage model 12 F/TR .308. I have already verified my case, powder, bullet seating, runout, headspace, etc., etc. I also measure a percentage of my primers by lot number so I know they are consistent within a few percentage points. I am rather happy with getting under 1/2 MOA (3 inches) at the 600 yard competitions I usually shoot at, so it shoots straight. I have also done bullet seating tests at 100 yards with specialized targets. So, this was just quick look to see if primer pocket truing, etc would be of benefit. TO ME, what I got at 200 yards told me it helps a bit, so I do it. My brass prep takes me bit of time,. so the extra minute or so truing the pocket is not a burden or waste of time TO ME. If you don't want to do it, for whatever YOUR reasons or tests or whatever are, then don't. If anyone else wants to, well that is like reloading is in gerneral - I am reloading FOR ME in a way that makes me happy. Like this thread, I read to learn and see what others are doing, and try it if I like it, and if don't if does not work for me. What anyone else thinks or opinion about MY reloading is irrelevant to me. I feel I should contribute where I can.
 
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Doesn't have to RANK anywhere.
If you want to uniform Primer Pockets or don't your choice.
I do it because I want to. No one on this thread said this is the best thing to do and you should do it, but some reloaders that don't do it- say it is not worth doing.
I respect that-To each his or her own.
Put a question to 10 reloaders and you may get 10 different answers.
My point was when you must do it, then, it doesn't hurt to have uniformity. The bench or f-class guys probably would agree it's the other things that matter.
 
Doesn't have to RANK anywhere.
If you want to uniform Primer Pockets or don't your choice.
I do it because I want to. No one on this thread said this is the best thing to do and you should do it, but some reloaders that don't do it- say it is not worth doing.
I respect that-To each his or her own.
Put a question to 10 reloaders and you may get 10 different answers.
It doesn't have to rank but it does rank either way.
Correct, you would get 10 answers and most all would put it at the bottom is all.

Now as for the YouTube star. Why when anyone disagrees or has a thought contrary to his does he have to make a scene and take his bat and ball to his "safe space".. you're correct it would be best to just ingnore. He didn't like what he heard and like any narcissist was not in control and left.
 
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