Picked my Seater die, which FL or Neck die?

[matt_3479]

My first full custom is going to be finished up shortly so i would like to get the reloading components together before it arrives. I am almost set on the Forster Ultra Micro seater die as i have been told for the money it actually seems nicer then the Redding.

What i dont know is what Sizer die to get as this is my first full custom i want to get the right thing. I was told by a local shooter to get a FL die as i will be hunting and testing my luck in Tactical style shooting which requires speed and if i just necked size i could get stuck cases, stick bolts and FL will get rid of that.

I was thinking the Forster Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die. Or getting the standard FL sizer or a redding FL sizer and just set it up to bump the shoulder back.

Please can someone point me in the right direction?

 

[AZShooter]

While I understand the friend's suggestion you get a FL die so you can cycle the brass easily, you can do the same thing AND neck size with a bushing.

The idea is to size the brass with as little size change/ deformation as possible. This minimizes work hardening. For instance, the typical FL die has an extra tight neck to size down any of the many brands of brass which have different neck wall thicknesses. The sizer ball then opens up the ID of the neck to a particular dimension. RCBS typically uses a .003" difference between a sized neck and a seated bullet. This is sometimes referred to as the neck tension.

If you choose a bushing die you can decide how much neck tension to use. Many rifles will shoot more accurately with less tension like .002" or in some instances .001" difference between sized necks and loaded ammo.

When using a hunting rifle is it prudent to see if the bullet moves in the case during recoil. I do this by placing a loaded round in the magazine and fire 4 or 5 shots with it in place. I then measure to see if the bullet moves. If there is movement then more tension is required.

The fit issue can be resolved by using a FL bushing die or a separate body die. Redding makes both styles. I prefer to use a body die as a separate operation. All you have to do with either die is lower it the appropriate amount so the shoulder and body taper are reduced enough for smooth easy bolt closure. You dial it in to suit your needs.

Hope this helps.

Ross

 

[nosualc]

+1 on an FL bushing die, for a bunch of reasons.

Each time you fire a case, it expands to fill your chamber. The body expands, the neck expands, the case will become longer from base to shoulder. Nobody will debate this.

1) A neck die only resizes the neck. It doesn't size the body or bump the shoulder. Fire your cases enough and the cases will expand enough in the other dimensions to cause you problems (hard chambering, the dread bolt lift 'click', etc.) Eventually you will need to correct this with a FL die, body die and or bump die.

2) Maximum accuracy is the result of maximum consistency. You want every loaded cartridge to be a close to one another as possible. If you are only sizing the neck, each cartridge will have an indeterminate size in the body and head to shoulder dimension. Accuracy will suffer.

If you doubt this, shoot some tight chambering cases next to some properly fitting cases, at a significant range with everything else equal. The tight cases will POI higher than the others.

Using a properly set up FL die (few really know how to do this correctly), every time, is better because it's one stop shopping. No need for special dies, no every 3rd cartridge chambers hard mysteries, etc. Your cases will be as close as they can be each and every time. Your accuracy will also improve.

The downside to FL dies has always been that they size too much which hurts brass life, and they bend case necks.

1) The instructions that come with FL dies are for beginners. The proper way to determine how far to turn down an FL die is by closely fitting the amount of sizing to your specific rifle.

2) They tend to size necks way too much. This is remedied by using a bushing die. You can pick how much to size your necks. You can even tune with this.

3) With a FL bushing die, the expander button (a large source of concentricity issues) should be removed. No sense expanding a neck that you just carefully sized.

One further thought: Neck sizing dies were all the vogue in competitive shooting years ago. Competitive shooters, especially long range competitors have almost unanimously evolved to FL sizing.

-nosualc

 

[matt_3479]

+1 on an FL bushing die, for a bunch of reasons.

Each time you fire a case, it expands to fill your chamber. The body expands, the neck expands, the case will become longer from base to shoulder. Nobody will debate this.

1) A neck die only resizes the neck. It doesn't size the body or bump the shoulder. Fire your cases enough and the cases will expand enough in the other dimensions to cause you problems (hard chambering, the dread bolt lift 'click', etc.) Eventually you will need to correct this with a FL die, body die and or bump die.

2) Maximum accuracy is the result of maximum consistency. You want every loaded cartridge to be a close to one another as possible. If you are only sizing the neck, each cartridge will have an indeterminate size in the body and head to shoulder dimension. Accuracy will suffer.

If you doubt this, shoot some tight chambering cases next to some properly fitting cases, at a significant range with everything else equal. The tight cases will POI higher than the others.

Using a properly set up FL die (few really know how to do this correctly), every time, is better because it's one stop shopping. No need for special dies, no every 3rd cartridge chambers hard mysteries, etc. Your cases will be as close as they can be each and every time. Your accuracy will also improve.

The downside to FL dies has always been that they size too much which hurts brass life, and they bend case necks.

1) The instructions that come with FL dies are for beginners. The proper way to determine how far to turn down an FL die is by closely fitting the amount of sizing to your specific rifle.

2) They tend to size necks way too much. This is remedied by using a bushing die. You can pick how much to size your necks. You can even tune with this.

3) With a FL bushing die, the expander button (a large source of concentricity issues) should be removed. No sense expanding a neck that you just carefully sized.

One further thought: Neck sizing dies were all the vogue in competitive shooting years ago. Competitive shooters, especially long range competitors have almost unanimously evolved to FL sizing.

-nosualc

So which FL sizer die do you recommend. I see you said FL bushing die, so do you recommend the Redding FL bushing die.

in point number 2 on the down side you said you just pich how much to size your necks. Im sorry as i am extremely new to proper precision reloading but how do i choose what bushing to choose how much to neck size?

so if the instructions in a FL die is only for beginners how do i set up a FL die properly. I was doing a little reading and asking a few questions and from what i understand i just want to set it up as per instructions and then back it out a 1/2-full turn. then start to size till you bump shoulder back .002 and lock her down. Is that what you mean or are you setting it up differently!

 

[nosualc]

So which FL sizer die do you recommend. I see you said FL bushing die, so do you recommend the Redding FL bushing die.

in point number 2 on the down side you said you just pich how much to size your necks. Im sorry as i am extremely new to proper precision reloading but how do i choose what bushing to choose how much to neck size?

so if the instructions in a FL die is only for beginners how do i set up a FL die properly. I was doing a little reading and asking a few questions and from what i understand i just want to set it up as per instructions and then back it out a 1/2-full turn. then start to size till you bump shoulder back .002 and lock her down. Is that what you mean or are you setting it up differently!

Redding's FL Bushing die is good. Whidden makes similar bushing dies. I'd recommend either.

Which bushing? Good question. Take a new case. Seat a bullet. Measure the neck with a caliper. Subtract from there. Usually you're going to subtract .003-.004 for a hunting rifle. For a match rifle, .002-.001. The smaller the bushing the more neck tension.

Note, you want more tension on a hunting rifle than a match rifle because the loaded cartridges will be more subject to rough handling/recoil in magazines, etc. Match guns and ammo are usually handled pretty carefully.

Example: If I had a .284 bullet, and my case necks were .015, that'd measure to about .314. I would subtract .003-.004 and get a .310 and .311 bushing.

Then you see which bushing your particular load/rifle likes best. It will tell you.

The right way to set up a FL die, or at least how I do it. Remove the firing pin from your bolt. Put the bolt in your rifle with an empty chamber. Notice how it closes with no effort at all; it should fall closed by gravity on the bolt handle alone. Remember this feel.

Now grab a bunch of your FIRED brass with the primers removed; hopefully you have 20-30 pieces. Put each empty, fired case in the chamber and carefully close the bolt. The resistance to closing the bolt feel will likely vary. Some will still close as easily as above, some will give slight resistance, some will take some effort. Set aside the ones that take the most effort, these are the cases that need to have their shoulders bumped.

If you have the right tools (a good investment: Hornady, Sinclair, among others), you can measure distance from the head to the shoulder on these cases. These set aside cases will be longer than the others in this measurement.

Now, screw your FL die into your press. Screw it down til it hits, then unscrew maybe a full turn, maybe more. Lube up one of your set aside cases and size it. You'll likely not bump anything yet. Clean it up, chamber it again. It should still give resistance to bolt close (because on this first pass you haven't moved the shoulder).

Now, successively, continue to screw the die in by very small amounts and test in this same way until you feel the shoulder on resizing (you will feel it), AND the bolt closing effort disappears. If you have the measurement tools, you can see that shoulder has now moved by measurement. Ideally you want the shoulder to be bumped at least .002, maybe more like .003-.004 for maximum reliability on a hunting gun.

After one case, try the others. You may have to fiddle back and forth a little to get it just right. Don't be surprised if on the 2 & 3 firings of the same brass that you have to adjust it a little (brass gets harder, without annealing, you may have to adjust).

Once you've found the right spot. Lock the ring, don't adjust it any more unless you have to. Make sure you use the same press, case holder, etc.

Hopefully that all made sense.


-nosualc

 

[bruno t]

I'd go with both, a bench rest shooter I shoot with wins all the time! He mostly fl sizes.. But neck sizes half the time.. Still shoots 5 shots at 600 yards in 1.5 inches. He was crying one day cause of a 3.78inch 5shot group at 600yards I said boo who, my group was 8 inches and I'm smiling! I understand I was shooting a hunting rifle,and he used a bench rest rifle. His barrel weighed what my gun weighed empty. So I still didn't feel bad for him cause it was windy, and other ppl shot 10 inch groups. Most guys were in 5 to 6 inch range. With a couple 4s along the way.

 

[BountyHunter]

Ask your smith for a reamer print and send a copy to widden and Dave Kiff at ptg. PTG makes the reamers for redding dies.

Ask them how close the smith's reamer fits those dies and go with the FL bushing die that fits best for sure.

 

[Timber338]

I use Redding FL bushing dies to resize. And along with the dies, I use Redding Competition Shellholders. It is the most repeatable way to set the shoulder bump to .001 to .002 smaller than your chamber so you get very consistent resized cases. Download Reddings latest product manual and they have instructions on how to use the competition shellholders along with a FL sizing die.

 

[matt_3479]

Redding's FL Bushing die is good. Whidden makes similar bushing dies. I'd recommend either.

Which bushing? Good question. Take a new case. Seat a bullet. Measure the neck with a caliper. Subtract from there. Usually you're going to subtract .003-.004 for a hunting rifle. For a match rifle, .002-.001. The smaller the bushing the more neck tension.

Note, you want more tension on a hunting rifle than a match rifle because the loaded cartridges will be more subject to rough handling/recoil in magazines, etc. Match guns and ammo are usually handled pretty carefully.

Example: If I had a .284 bullet, and my case necks were .015, that'd measure to about .314. I would subtract .003-.004 and get a .310 and .311 bushing.

Then you see which bushing your particular load/rifle likes best. It will tell you.

The right way to set up a FL die, or at least how I do it. Remove the firing pin from your bolt. Put the bolt in your rifle with an empty chamber. Notice how it closes with no effort at all; it should fall closed by gravity on the bolt handle alone. Remember this feel.

Now grab a bunch of your FIRED brass with the primers removed; hopefully you have 20-30 pieces. Put each empty, fired case in the chamber and carefully close the bolt. The resistance to closing the bolt feel will likely vary. Some will still close as easily as above, some will give slight resistance, some will take some effort. Set aside the ones that take the most effort, these are the cases that need to have their shoulders bumped.

If you have the right tools (a good investment: Hornady, Sinclair, among others), you can measure distance from the head to the shoulder on these cases. These set aside cases will be longer than the others in this measurement.

Now, screw your FL die into your press. Screw it down til it hits, then unscrew maybe a full turn, maybe more. Lube up one of your set aside cases and size it. You'll likely not bump anything yet. Clean it up, chamber it again. It should still give resistance to bolt close (because on this first pass you haven't moved the shoulder).

Now, successively, continue to screw the die in by very small amounts and test in this same way until you feel the shoulder on resizing (you will feel it), AND the bolt closing effort disappears. If you have the measurement tools, you can see that shoulder has now moved by measurement. Ideally you want the shoulder to be bumped at least .002, maybe more like .003-.004 for maximum reliability on a hunting gun.

After one case, try the others. You may have to fiddle back and forth a little to get it just right. Don't be surprised if on the 2 & 3 firings of the same brass that you have to adjust it a little (brass gets harder, without annealing, you may have to adjust).

Once you've found the right spot. Lock the ring, don't adjust it any more unless you have to. Make sure you use the same press, case holder, etc.

Hopefully that all made sense.


-nosualc

You have been more then helpful and I greatly appreciate this! I heard whidden dies are great and I'd love to run some but redding is more readily available and easier to get bushings for when the time comes. I will still keep looking around for whidden. Once again thank you for the highly detail post, I will be sure to give it a try!

Matt

 

[barefooter56]

Matt,
Newlon Reloading dies on the NET makes blank busing style FL dies also that have not been heat treated and are easier to ream. Ask the gunsmith that made your rifle if he will ream a die for you. Or find a good one that will before you order anything. And get information on the reamer that was used to chamber your rifle. If you want to stick with a Redding or Whidden die I believe they are both heat treated already and may be hard to ream. Contact those two companies to see if they offer a service to modify or make a die to your specifications too.

 

[nosualc]

You have been more then helpful and I greatly appreciate this! I heard whidden dies are great and I'd love to run some but redding is more readily available and easier to get bushings for when the time comes. I will still keep looking around for whidden. Once again thank you for the highly detail post, I will be sure to give it a try!
Matt

I didn't see you mention which cartridge you're using, but whidden usually has dies in stock and would be just as available as a redding.

Note also the whidden bushing dies are designed to work with Redding bushings.

-nosualc