Jon Bischof
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't know whether the bullet exited or not, but we have definitely beaten this horse to death.
Pass through or Expended in Target?
- Thread starter WildRose
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Hard rock
Well-Known Member
I would bet my bottom dollar, more deer have been lost in the field with good non pass thru shots than good pass thru shots. That's a fact , one example of many if a deer runs with no sign of any kind of a blood trail for a 100 yds or less , there are a lot of hunters that will assume they missed.
VLD Pilot
Well-Known Member
None I've ever shot. When they get hit, they go down right there. If not, within view from my shot location.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily.
A bullet penciling through with the same velocity and weight of a bullet that expands properly has the same impact energy. The mushroomed bullet expends all remaining energy while the other continues and the rest of it's energy will be spent where ever it buries up.
My theory based on looking at the chest cavity on hundreds of animals shot is that the pressure wave/shock wave generated by the larger frontal section of the expanded bullet does far more damage than that of the bullet that failed to expand.
When you open the cavity and it's just all one big mass of lumpy, bloody, half congealed jelloy looking substance you don't have to wonder if that animal ran 300 yards, 30' or even 3', you know it died right there.
We see the same effect with explosives in water hence the use of dynamite in fishing which was fairly popular till it was outlawed.
Same with submarines being depth charged or ships that aren't actually hit by torpedos using a magnetic or proximity fuse.
When those explosions go off there's a shockwave that can temporarily stun or kill animals and break solid structures like hulls apart or simply cause massive injuries to the crew getting tossed around and slammed into walls, ceilings and crews by that wave.
Divers operating in water where explosions occur suffer from concussions and internal bleeding brought on by that shockwave as well.
We've got a wealth of hard evidence to support the idea of fatal wounding due to the effects of those shock waves whether you call it hydraulic shot, hydrostatic shock, or use some other term.
When you displace a large volume of fluid with a highly energetic impact of any sort that is held in place only by thin blood vessels and tender organs, things are going to rupture.
That doesn't even take into the account of the shock the CNS suffers which is also well documented.
There's also really no logical way to argue that the penciling through bullet will generate less of that effect than the one with the larger frontal section be that from mushrooming or from a bullet like Steve's that sheds the pointy parts in the front of the bullet leaving a caliber sided frontal section or larger as the bullet stovepipes from the resistance. If that frontal section increases from 7mm to 8.5mm or larger it's going to impart a whole lot more of it's energy to the target whether it passes through or not than the bullet that did not expand at all.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
I've seen a whole lot of animals that left no visible blood trail at all for fifty to a hundred yards or more. Bleeding is immediate when blood vessels are opened up but, with only a caliber, or smaller than caliber sized opening to the outside the cavity may have to fill with blood before there is any visible loss of blood.
Jon Bischof
Well-Known Member
I have also seen entry holes get plugged with fat, fur and skin so that they bleed on the inside but don't leave a blood trail. But if you have an exit hole that is slightly larger in diameter than the entry hole, it is much more likely to always leave a blood trail. That trail is sometimes the only way to find the critter. I know this forum is for Long Range Hunting; but Folks who hunt wide open spaces cannot really relate to what it is like hunting in places that are full of nothing but cover. The exit hole is an absolute necessity in places where everywhere is a hiding place.
lancetkenyon
Well-Known Member
Just because a bullet exits does not mean it has greater energy when it ENTERS an animal. A lightweight solid that exits with less expansion can have far less energy when it enters than a heavy for caliber cup and core that sheds 50-75% of it's weight as it fragments but does not exit.
637 yds, 7000' AMSL, 30°F:
6.5SLR, 127 Barnes LRX @ 2975fps, 2015fps & 1145ft/lbs remaining, bullet broke both shoulders, both lungs, and a vertebrae and still exited, deer dropped but did not expire immediately.
454 yds, 7000', 30°F
6.5SLR, 130 Berger OTM @ 2925fps, 2386fps & 1654ft/lbs remaining, quartering away, entered behind last rib, took out both lungs and a vertebrae, and deer dropped DRT without a twitch. Bullet found under hide on opposite side.
Btw the trophy copper had a complete pass through and massive trauma. .30 entrance 2.5" exit. Lungs turned to mush and no lung structure, top of heart gone. DRT not even a step. Deer Season no exit. Heavy bleeding internally, partial lung mush, dead sprint when shot. I'm ****ed I can't find the 30-06 federal trophy copper anywhere!
Joefrazell
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I prefer both, kinda. I like a heavy softer bullet. It may stay inside up close when the bullet is really having to work but T extended distance I really hope for a pass through. Although I'm not convinced that it's needed badly enough to used a Barnes or other bullet that could cause issues of not expanding enough. I'd definitely rather have a bullet stay inside then pencil through. I prefer a 180 hybrid out of a 7 or a 195 eol and I don't need them going to fast to start. 2800-2900 is perfect.
I know this a LR hunting forum and I'm here to learn as much as I can to eventually make it out west and up north for some dream hunts. Like it was stated earlier, if you're out west or primarily a bean field hunter ba blood trail isn't necessary. The whitetail deer in Ohio and Indiana don't get big hanging out in the middle of 1,000 acre fields. You can catch them moving from feeding areas to bedding areas on field edges and fence rows. The **** honeysuckle is so thick here that as soon as they're hit they dip. Without a blood trail your screwed. Without a pass through you also take a chance of the single hole filling with fat, hair, debris. They always seem to find water that washes the blood off. I prefer fast moving solids that pad through and open. One of the deer I shot with the soft points man bun was a perfect lung shot. I waited like I always do for 30 minutes, went to track it and ended up finding a little blood but ended up pushing it into some super thick crappy undergrowth that took me 1.5 hours to find it without and blood trail to follow. The CM hasn't gone out since. I'll try some different bullets before I give up on the 6.5MB..lol Any bullet suggestions with the 6.5CM? Prefer solid copper or something other than lead that will pass through and open?
I also think this forum and members are awesome. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!! I really like this website also for rifle info: www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Just going to take a bit of issue with this. Both our native prairie grasses and CRP on wet years can be 3-6' high on the plains and Llano Estacado. Get into the high desert you'll find a whole lot of sage that will average 3-4' tall on a good year.
Without a blood trail you can lose a whole lot of deer in the west.
Huntnful
Well-Known Member
That's a really valid and good point. Or out in the big sage flats or thick juniper also, if you can't keep an eye on the animal after the shot.
brant89
Well-Known Member
In a perfect world I'd like a 3+ inch exit hole, but unfortunately that's not the world we operate in. Bullets that don't exit don't always drop game, and bullets that do exit don't always leave blood trails.
