OK I'm going to learn how to use MOA instead of a custom dial. Scenario Questions

[whirlwindjml]

If it was me I would use the Burris Eliminator III scope. Range finder built in , dot moves for the shot. You are good to 750 yards on a elk, they are big enough for a good reading 99% of the time for me any way.
Spend the money on this scope instead of buying the $1000.00 plus MOA scope. Use your moa scope for target , PD , etc hunting were you have more than 30 seconds to make the shot. Does not make sense to me to spend all that money on a elk hunt , all that vacation time and all that walking and rush the shot and or miss the shot. Pull up the Burris Eliminator III and in 10 seconds and I bet less , bang , animal is on the sod. MD

Those are illegal in idaho. No electric device on guns or bows. Only illuminated reticle s.

 

[Tangent]

learn to shoot your gun and raise up to hit the target. what's with all this fancy Dial it up crap???????

Dialing a scope is fancy? LOL, you know this is a LONG RANGE hunting forum right?

 

[charliewhisky]

As the title says I'm going to try to learn how to use MOA instead of a custom dial to shoot out to 1000 yards. I have this scenario and was hoping some of you experienced hunters can walk me through the steps and where I should go to learn them.
Here's the scenario:

I'm glassing this basin and I see a nice bull and he's out there a ways. I use my rangefinder and he's at 650 yards. The Elk is on the edge of cover and slowly feeding into the trees and you have about 30 seconds to take this shot or lose the opportunity.
The wind is 15 mph from the right at 60 deg quartering to me. The temp is 30 degrees and the elevation is 6000'.
My ballistic chart for the 200 Gr ELD-X says I need to come up 10.8 moa.

What tool(s) are you using to get the dope for this shot and how long would it take you to get it? Can it be done this quickly in different conditions?

Why MOA?

If you have a First Focal Plane Mil Dot scope and a basic knowledge of the Mil Dot/Range relationship, you should be able to move from your scope presentation to a cheat sheet and, in seconds, use a Mil Dot holdover for the shot.

I am currently shooting a 30-06 with 200gr ELD-X and a Mil Dot scope. If I had to rush the shot, I would estimate a nice Bull Elk as having a Chest measurement of between 36 and 40 inches.

Using your data, I would expect to see a scope presentation of about 1.5 Mil Dots measurement on the Bulls chest.

Using the smallest size of 36", this translates fairly quickly using memorized data and a cheat sheet to about 650yds.

My cheat sheet would be in 50yd increments and I would see about a 3.8 Mil Dot Hold over at 650ds for the 36" target estimate I would use.

I would assume that the bull could be farther away or larger and I would hold with the top of the 4 Mil Dot (3.75 holdover) for a better sight picture somewhere high near the topline for a behind the shoulder shot .

My ballistics indicates a drop of about 21 inches from 650yd to 700yds so an error in range of 50 meters would still give me a hit at 700yds with 15 inches to spare.

My ballistics indicate a .1 mil correction for wind (2.3 inches) and I don't think I can cut it that fine at 650 yards and would not try.

I would rely on the 200gr ELD-x to perform as advertised within the probable hit range.

BTW, I have never shot an Elk. But this is how I would set up. Please let me know if you see an error.

 

[excaliber]

OK, I've read what everyone has recommended and here's my thoughts and why I picked the scenario I did.
My setup is a Rem 700 bdl with Bartlein #3 5R barrel 26" 1:10 with brake. New Scope is a Zeiss V4 6-24x50 with the zmoa-1 reticle.
I'm shooting the 200 gr ELD-X with 79gr of H1000 at 2970 fps +/- zero will be 200 yards as it was with the old scope.
This gun is really accurate and shoots into ragged holes at 200 yards. Shooting steel and paper out to 750 yards(max range) was no problem at all with the CDS scope. I'm hoping it will be better with the Zeiss.
I'm not what any of you would call an experienced shooter but this gun just flat out puts them right where I'm aiming.

I thought that I would just buy a Kenton custom dial similar to what I had with my recently removed CDS scope but with both moa and yardage on it. They call it the Military dial.
I was thinking I could have marked yardage for quicker shots and then have the ability to dial moa for shooting longer distances and playing around at the range.
Then I thought why not just learn moa and dial that way? Hence this post.

From watching people use their High end wind meters, linked Rangefinder and apps on their phones I thought these were more for shooting steel as they are just too slow to get the actual data needed for my intended usage in a hunting situation.

From most of the comments I think I'm still right about these systems being too slow in a quick hunting situation. I'm not too keen on passing a trophy animal that I could dial for and kill with my old setup.

I specifically picked the scenario to see if anyone could come up with a system to get the dope needed in this amount of time to make this shot. Many said they would pass on the shot.

I'm was hoping there would be some system that would be much quicker. It sounds like the G7 Rangefinder might be the fastest.
I may be best off with a compromise using a less expensive wind meter, my Sig2200 and a printed drop chart for the current hunt.
I'm still kicking things around and haven't made any real decisions yet.
Thanks everyone for all the info.

 

[sedancowboy]

excaliber: The Leica will do what you want as fast as you can range with its internal ballistics.
I added the Kestrel to make it more accurate but to 650 yds it is not necessary.

 

[Stevenstl86]

What was your rifle zero? 10.8 moa sounds closer to a 300 to 600 yd come up.

I put the values into BulletFlight app and they are pretty darn close. Very fast and simple app to use.

I still like to confirm dope when I show up to a new elevation/condition to hunt if I can. Best thing to do is to run dope in all kinds of weather to see if you get poi shift and keep a log.

 

[Bubba Q]

OK, I've read what everyone has recommended and here's my thoughts and why I picked the scenario I did.
My setup is a Rem 700 bdl with Bartlein #3 5R barrel 26" 1:10 with brake. New Scope is a Zeiss V4 6-24x50 with the zmoa-1 reticle.
I'm shooting the 200 gr ELD-X with 79gr of H1000 at 2970 fps +/- zero will be 200 yards as it was with the old scope.
This gun is really accurate and shoots into ragged holes at 200 yards. Shooting steel and paper out to 750 yards(max range) was no problem at all with the CDS scope. I'm hoping it will be better with the Zeiss.
I'm not what any of you would call an experienced shooter but this gun just flat out puts them right where I'm aiming.

I thought that I would just buy a Kenton custom dial similar to what I had with my recently removed CDS scope but with both moa and yardage on it. They call it the Military dial.
I was thinking I could have marked yardage for quicker shots and then have the ability to dial moa for shooting longer distances and playing around at the range.
Then I thought why not just learn moa and dial that way? Hence this post.

From watching people use their High end wind meters, linked Rangefinder and apps on their phones for I thought these were more for shooting steel as they are just too slow to get the actual data need for my intended usage in a hunting situation.

From most of the comments I think I'm still right about these systems being too slow in a quick hunting situation. I'm not too keen on passing a trophy animal that I could dial for and kill with my old setup.

I specifically picked the scenario to see if anyone could come up with a system to get the dope needed in this amount of time to make this shot. Many said they would pass on the shot.

I'm was hoping there would be some system that would be much quicker. It sounds like the G7 Rangefinder might be the fastest.
I may be best off with a compromise using a less expensive wind meter, my Sig2200 and a printed drop chart for the current hunt.
I'm still kicking things around and haven't made any real decisions yet.
Thanks everyone for all the info.

 

[MarshMello]

The only thing that changed from your custom dial is to glance at a range card and dial that number instead of your yardage. Everything else is the same.

How to get that number is where the varying opinions are. Kestrel or app, whatever flavor you like. Do it ahead of time. Close enough is good enough. 600 yards and inside you won't be more that 1 moa off. My 300wsm changes like 1MOA per 1000' of elevation. Make a chart and put in a wrist card or on your stock or in your scope cover. Make an extra card if your elevation changes are extreme. Wind will be a far greater influence on your shot than 1-3MOA of elevation on an Elk sized target.

My rangefinder is the only electronic device I depend on for my shooting solution at the moment of truth. Everything else is worked out ahead of time. Of course you can range with a FFP mildot reticle and with lots of practice get very close but for longer shots on game I really prefer knowing +/- a yard.

 

[Bubba Q]

Sig 2000 Range finder, Mil Dot Master, boom, flop

 

[73driver]

It's quick and easy to do dial ups. First, if planning to shoot long range then hunting with a partner I feel is imperative. Second the day before the hunt use your ballistic app with local conditions to make a drop card out to 500 yards. Next morning hunt with this drop card and if you spot game the shooter gets set up on the game and partner range finds and refers to drop card for dial up. If shot is longer than 500 than ballistic app in your phone should have updated conditions and your spotter needs only to LRF enter the yardage in APP then press "calculate" and he reads you dial ups. Also its not expensive because we all have phones and you must have a LRF otherwise how can you legitimately tell 650 yards fro 780 yards? The premium ballistic apps for your phone cost less than 20 rounds and a Kestrel Drop (a temp, humidity and local pressure source) that updates your phone automatically is a whopping $130, the price of a pair of boots. But its all just fantasy if its the least bit windy, if your shooting 1000 yards over several ridges/gullies near any hills and not telling what the winds and here you are just guessing. Your ballistic app should let you put in your best guess for total wind component and the direction and using current conditions and your verified and trued MV and bullets BC give you your wind hold off. When its all said and done if you are not putting at least 20 rounds down range in varied conditions to 700/800/900/1000 yards monthly and verifying your system then you aren't being realistic.

 

[LRNut]

Here's the deal: I use a Sig Saur Kilo 2400 rangefinder. It pairs to your Smartphone app and there are tools in the app you can use to refine your solution, but, and that's a big big but in my opinion, the wind! To make this shot, you need a spotter or spend some time in a spotting scope and look at the wind 1/3 the way, 1/2 the way, 3/4 the way, etc until you can identify a precise wind hold, but, the key is a spotter. The wind changes and changes a lot, and real time changes from a very experienced spotter can make or break you! The Rangefinder gives you the MOA drop and the wind at your position so cold does not make your I phone worthless. The wind is not your friend, and you need to practice in wind to prove to yourself that you have no "*Rule 1 Violation*al" means to assure a lethal shot at 650 yards! That's what I learned playing with the wind in rugged hunting terrain! *Rule 1 Violation*al Solution: get closer! I may get shot down from some highly experienced professionals out there, that's ok, and am all ears to learn, but as a recreational hunter, not competitive marksman or military sniper with a designated spotter on board, my solution is to get closer rather than risk a miss or wound an animal that I cannot ever retrieve!

Maybe someone past Page 3 says the same, but this is spot on IMO.

Some guys mention Leica RF binos, G7, etc. None are as good the Sig2400; it is the only RF solution I am aware of except for a Sig RF bino (I think) that uses the AB Ballistic solver. Inputting wind is the weak link; it would be nice to toggle wind with a set of toggle buttons. G7 gives wind in 5 mph increments and does not calc spin drift or aerodynamic jump, both of which matter at longer ranges (longer than 650). Anyone want to buy my G7? I can't get into a Kestrel when I can have the solution in my RF.

Wind: At 15 mph you will have mirage washout. I suppose you could use a handheld but good luck. I seriously wonder how many guys who espouse this practice at long range, because it isn't the best method.

Not a (redacted for PC reasons) shot IMO.

 

[LRNut]

When its all said and done if you are not putting at least 20 rounds down range in varied conditions to 700/800/900/1000 yards monthly and verifying your system then you aren't being realistic.

Excellent advice. Key words are varied conditions. 20 shots over 20 days is infinitely better than 20 shots over two days. It is easy to read wind...until it comes time for the shot. And the first shot gives you feedback that you won't have if you wait until tomorrow to fire that second shot.

 

[338 dude]

OK, I've read what everyone has recommended and here's my thoughts and why I picked the scenario I did.
My setup is a Rem 700 bdl with Bartlein #3 5R barrel 26" 1:10 with brake. New Scope is a Zeiss V4 6-24x50 with the zmoa-1 reticle.
I'm shooting the 200 gr ELD-X with 79gr of H1000 at 2970 fps +/- zero will be 200 yards as it was with the old scope.
This gun is really accurate and shoots into ragged holes at 200 yards. Shooting steel and paper out to 750 yards(max range) was no problem at all with the CDS scope. I'm hoping it will be better with the Zeiss.
I'm not what any of you would call an experienced shooter but this gun just flat out puts them right where I'm aiming.

I thought that I would just buy a Kenton custom dial similar to what I had with my recently removed CDS scope but with both moa and yardage on it. They call it the Military dial.
I was thinking I could have marked yardage for quicker shots and then have the ability to dial moa for shooting longer distances and playing around at the range.
Then I thought why not just learn moa and dial that way? Hence this post.

From watching people use their High end wind meters, linked Rangefinder and apps on their phones I thought these were more for shooting steel as they are just too slow to get the actual data needed for my intended usage in a hunting situation.

From most of the comments I think I'm still right about these systems being too slow in a quick hunting situation. I'm not too keen on passing a trophy animal that I could dial for and kill with my old setup.

I specifically picked the scenario to see if anyone could come up with a system to get the dope needed in this amount of time to make this shot. Many said they would pass on the shot.

I'm was hoping there would be some system that would be much quicker. It sounds like the G7 Rangefinder might be the fastest.
I may be best off with a compromise using a less expensive wind meter, my Sig2200 and a printed drop chart for the current hunt.
I'm still kicking things around and haven't made any real decisions yet.
Thanks everyone for all the info.

G7! I didn't say how long I described my process but not the amount of time honestly I could range an animal dial the scope realistically within 20 seconds I believe

 

[corsteve]

just put x hairs top of back an shoot