Not sure where to post this!

[Clem Bronkoski]

I don't have a Bergara but I do have a Tikka T1x with a 20 inch barrel and a Vortex 4 x 12 x 44 that I not only shoot but my rifle students do too. We regularly shoot it at 100 yards using Winchester 40 gr hollow points and Federal Match ammo. Both loads turn 0.6 moa groups at 100 yards. If there are flyers pretty much 100% of the time it's the nut behind the scope.

I had never tried it before as I got such great results with Midas + match ammo but very $$$$. On a whim I bought some "Norma Tac" 22, 40 grain ammo and it shot 10 rounds into 1 inch at 100 yards, at 1/2 the price of the Lapua. If you come across some it is worth a look.

Teri the 3 different brands of Win I shot had flyers. And I mean way out of the group. If you look at the targets almost each one had at least one shot out of it. The 3 better ones were only out a tad.
Scott, Midway has Norma TAC-22 on sale. I ordered a carton a couple days ago. It shoots pretty good out of my rifle (see target)

 

[Scott E Ames]

Clem ,thanks for the tip! I was able to get some of these myself.

 

[Teri Anne]

Teri the 3 different brands of Win I shot had flyers. And I mean way out of the group. If you look at the targets almost each one had at least one shot out of it. The 3 better ones were only out a tad.
Scott, Midway has Norma TAC-22 on sale. I ordered a carton a couple days ago. It shoots pretty good out of my rifle (see target)

I have been shooting for some 64 years now, primarily rifles and pistols with my favorite being rifles. I have been a both a Military Instructor and NRA Certified Rifle and pistol since 1974. I have shot anything and everything from the .22 short/long rifle to the 300 Win Mag and all common calibers in-between. I haven't dealt with wildcats simply because they don't intrigue me in the slightest. I have shot all kinds of ammunition from just about any and every manufacturer. Some are better than others, some not so good. Surprisingly some of the most inexpensive ammo out-shoots the premium ammo. Each and every rifle has it's own cannon fodder that it likes and shoots the best. The big thing is finding that ammo, either factory or hand loaded. So now what is this leading up to?

I really find it hard to believe that the people here simply cannot accept the fact that they cannot muff a shot. Then they blame it on the ammo and call it a flyer. Gentlemen, we all muff an occasional shot. 99% of the time it is not the fault of the ammo. The only true problems that I have had with ammo is with an occasional misfire, more common with .22 ammo than center fire. Take the round and rotate it 180 degrees from the original firing pin strike and 80% of them will fire. That is an issue with the priming compound not being evenly distributed around the rim and it has happened with all the different brands of .22 ammo.

I have had occasional issues with hang fires, but virtually all have been center fire rifles as well as handguns. Remember to keep the firearm pointed safely down range for at least 30 seconds from the time you hear the click of the firing pin before ejecting the cartridge. Eject too soon and the cartridge coming out of the action can explode in mid air throwing shrapnel all over the place.

The only squib loads I have encountered was when shooting Hunt and Cover during the local club trap league. My shooting partner, who loads his own had three of them during one night. A primer going off without any powder will only send shot or a bullet a bit down the barrel obstructing the barrel and causing the firearm to blow up in your face. Not a good thing!

Finally, the only thing that I have to add comes from an old cop TV show,

BE SAFE OUT THERE---- AND ALWAYS REMEMBER TAB-K

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

I really find it hard to believe that the people here simply cannot accept the fact that they cannot muff a shot. Then they blame it on the ammo and call it a flyer. Gentlemen, we all muff an occasional shot. 99% of the time it is not the fault of the ammo. The only true problems that I have had with ammo is with an occasional misfire, more common with .22 ammo than center fire. Take the round and rotate it 180 degrees from the original firing pin strike and 80% of them will fire. That is an issue with the priming compound not being evenly distributed around the rim and it has happened with all the different brands of .22 ammo.

BE SAFE OUT THERE---- AND ALWAYS REMEMBER TAB-K

Teri I appreciate your comments but I too have been shooting for over 55 years and I have shot competitively for a number of years including some national matches so I know if I muff a shot and even call it in my head when it goes off but not in this case. In fact one of my team mates was a multi-time national champion and he too had flyers when we shot together. One of the reason I know it wasn't me is because I am a lefty and this is a right hand bolt action rifle. Everything, and I mean everything was consistent. My cheek never moved from the stock nor my grip on the rifle changed. At the shot the crosshair never veered from the bull. I was dead solid. The only explanation is the ammo. And why did it happen only with the Winchester ammo? All other ammo was consistently all over the place or only a minor deviation from an otherwise one hole group.
One thing I will consider that I will eliminate on my next outing is to shoot 5 rounds at a sight in target prior to shooting a group. This process should eliminate the variable of different lubes on the bullets. I may even swab the bore between brands of ammo.

 

[orkan]

Teri I appreciate your comments but I too have been shooting for over 55 years and I have shot competitively for a number of years including some national matches so I know if I muff a shot and even call it in my head when it goes off but not in this case. In fact one of my team mates was a multi-time national champion and he too had flyers when we shot together. One of the reason I know it wasn't me is because I am a lefty and this is a right hand bolt action rifle. Everything, and I mean everything was consistent. My cheek never moved from the stock nor my grip on the rifle changed. At the shot the crosshair never veered from the bull. I was dead solid. The only explanation is the ammo. And why did it happen only with the Winchester ammo? All other ammo was consistently all over the place or only a minor deviation from an otherwise one hole group.
One thing I will consider that I will eliminate on my next outing is to shoot 5 rounds at a sight in target prior to shooting a group. This process should eliminate the variable of different lubes on the bullets. I may even swab the bore between brands of ammo.

You're likely right. Don't let anyone tell you different. ESPECIALLY anyone that hasn't spent any real time with high end rimfire.

I'll refer you to my earlier work with the Bergara. I think you'll find Lapua Polar Biathlon will provide the best results, as that has been the case in every Bergara I've worked with to date. The bullet profile of the Polar Biathlon lends itself well to feeding consistently in non-optimized repeater designs, which is generally the cause of the "flyers" when using quality ammo.

You are being redirected...

Rest assured, you won't be seeing positive results from Winchester ammo compared to the European target varieties.


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[LVJ76]

Teri I appreciate your comments but I too have been shooting for over 55 years and I have shot competitively for a number of years including some national matches so I know if I muff a shot and even call it in my head when it goes off but not in this case. In fact one of my team mates was a multi-time national champion and he too had flyers when we shot together. One of the reason I know it wasn't me is because I am a lefty and this is a right hand bolt action rifle. Everything, and I mean everything was consistent. My cheek never moved from the stock nor my grip on the rifle changed. At the shot the crosshair never veered from the bull. I was dead solid. The only explanation is the ammo. And why did it happen only with the Winchester ammo? All other ammo was consistently all over the place or only a minor deviation from an otherwise one hole group.
One thing I will consider that I will eliminate on my next outing is to shoot 5 rounds at a sight in target prior to shooting a group. This process should eliminate the variable of different lubes on the bullets. I may even swab the bore between brands of ammo.

Second that Clem, been shooting for 30+ years and competitively.

I know when it was me and when it's a flyer. I am not ashamed to admit fault on a shot, we all have them. But flyers do happen.

To learn to tell the difference I was taught to practice dry fire, this teaches you so many things about position and trigger pull, amongst other things.

 

[Teri Anne]

Teri I appreciate your comments but I too have been shooting for over 55 years and I have shot competitively for a number of years including some national matches so I know if I muff a shot and even call it in my head when it goes off but not in this case. In fact one of my team mates was a multi-time national champion and he too had flyers when we shot together. One of the reason I know it wasn't me is because I am a lefty and this is a right hand bolt action rifle. Everything, and I mean everything was consistent. My cheek never moved from the stock nor my grip on the rifle changed. At the shot the crosshair never veered from the bull. I was dead solid. The only explanation is the ammo. And why did it happen only with the Winchester ammo? All other ammo was consistently all over the place or only a minor deviation from an otherwise one hole group.
One thing I will consider that I will eliminate on my next outing is to shoot 5 rounds at a sight in target prior to shooting a group. This process should eliminate the variable of different lubes on the bullets. I may even swab the bore between brands of ammo.

I have been shooting Winchester LC Match ammo since 1965 particularly in a M-14 Match Rifle when shooting on U.S. Army teams. While a semi auto rifle using iron sights may not be the best for comparison my Winchester Model 70 in .308 with a Vortex 4 x 12 x 40 tactical scope regularly shoots 1 hole groups at 100 yards with Winchester .308 168 gr match ammo. If there is a flyer among them it still stays within 1 MOA. Since there is no match ammo available for my .270 I shoot Federal 140 gr Trophy Bonded or my own handloads. Again no known or noticed incidence of flyers, at least out to 300 yards.

I have an Anderson M-15 in 5.56 in the NATO configuration. I regularly shoot the 62 grain USA Ready and shot the M855 before our glorious president banned it from civilian sale and again have not noted any incidence of flyers. And now for your next question I do not own stock in Winchester.com

Everybody's experience is different. While I have noted some that could be called flyers in my handloads and especially in the el-cheapo ammo available on the Internet there is a definite possibility since they do not group well and there is a high incidence of misfires.

 

[orkan]

I have been shooting Winchester LC Match ammo since 1965 particularly in a M-14 Match Rifle when shooting on U.S. Army teams. While a semi auto rifle using iron sights may not be the best for comparison my Winchester Model 70 in .308 with a Vortex 4 x 12 x 40 tactical scope regularly shoots 1 hole groups at 100 yards with Winchester .308 168 gr match ammo. If there is a flyer among them it still stays within 1 MOA. Since there is no match ammo available for my .270 I shoot Federal 140 gr Trophy Bonded or my own handloads. Again no known or noticed incidence of flyers, at least out to 300 yards.

I have an Anderson M-15 in 5.56 in the NATO configuration. I regularly shoot the 62 grain USA Ready and shot the M855 before our glorious president banned it from civilian sale and again have not noted any incidence of flyers. And now for your next question I do not own stock in Winchester.com

Everybody's experience is different. While I have noted some that could be called flyers in my handloads and especially in the el-cheapo ammo available on the Internet there is a definite possibility since they do not group well and there is a high incidence of misfires.

What does centerfire ammo have to do with rimfire ammo?

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[Clem Bronkoski]

What does centerfire ammo have to do with rimfire ammo?

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Exactly...In my experience over the 55 plus years shooting rimfires is that each rifle (or handgun) has its favorite brand. Same goes for muzzleloaders which I have been shooting since the early 70s. What shoots excellent in one will shoot just so so in another and sometime even worse. I will even go so far as to say that centerfire rifles are similar but not as picky. I have a few rifles in my gun safes that will shoot 0.5 MOA with tailored handloads but will only shoot 1 MOA or so with factory ammo. This is the reason why I only shoot factory ammo to break in a barrel and for the brass for reloading.
I got this rifle as a high end plinker but now that I see what it can do I want to push it and extend its range. I have no use for ammo that doesn't fill that bill. I'll save my Win and Rem ammo for my lesser quality 22s when I just want to play and make some noise.
Note: I will confess that 2 of the 3 types of Win ammo I shot were old stock. This could have been the reason for the flyers. The 3rd type though shot just as bad as the other 2. And if you examine the targets you can see that the ones that shot bad were equally spaced. The better ones went in the same hole or very close.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

Here are a couple video links on testing 22 ammo. The first on the gentleman was using a Kimber and he got similar results albeit he only fired 3 shot groups which does not say much. Honestly I was surprised the Kimber didn't shoot better.

how to test ammo in a .22lr handgun at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

how to test ammo in a .22lr handgun at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

how to test ammo in a .22lr handgun at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

 

[Teri Anne]

What does centerfire ammo have to do with rimfire ammo?

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Well let's see??? It has a case, primer, powder and bullet. Primer configuration is somewhat different which sometimes causes issues when the priming compound does not spin out to the entire rim, or in some cases there was no priming compound to begin with. Ammo is ammo and it's all subject to the same problems. That is what RIMFIRE has to do that is similar to center fire.

 

[orkan]

Where is the conviction of your previous posts while you attempted to dress someone else down?

How about this? We meet somewhere with 22LR rifles of our choosing. You have to use Winchester ammo. I can use any ammo. We'll shoot 5 shot groups at 100yds. Every time you shoot one that is .6" or less like you claim, I give you $100. Every time I shoot one .6" or less, you give me $100?

We'll see how cavalier you are when we've fired 20 or so 5-shot groups.

You're now on my ignore list.

 

[Teri Anne]

Where is the conviction of your previous posts while you attempted to dress someone else down?

How about this? We meet somewhere with 22LR rifles of our choosing. You have to use Winchester ammo. I can use any ammo. We'll shoot 5 shot groups at 100yds. Every time you shoot one that is .6" or less like you claim, I give you $100. Every time I shoot one .6" or less, you give me $100?

We'll see how cavalier you are when we've fired 20 or so 5-shot groups.

You're now on my ignore list.

And then you put me on your ignore list before I can even reply. Quit being a jerk.