Norma BondStrike, TipStrike, and J&A Abram bullets

[Petey308]

More bullets added to my ever growing database.

One of these is from a small custom bullet maker, J&A Custom Ammunition, called the Abram. They seem to be a great compromise between a soft point design, that would lower potential BC and consistency, and your typical open tip match (OTM) bullet. The open tip on the Abram is larger than most every OTM style bullet out there, but the lead core goes almost all the way to the opening. This allows a more controlled (less dramatic) expansion upon impact, but still reliably expands thanks to the thin jacket.

There are other OTM style bullets, such as the Berger Hybrid varieties, that take a different approach. They feature a smaller opening, but a large cavity below the opening. Sometimes a huge cavity can create expansion that initiates rapidily and dramatically, often resulting in over-expansion. The Berger Hybrids feature ribs/flutes (whatever you want to call them) right at the ogive where the cavity is. This allows the expansion to be less dramatic, but still reliable. Just some food for thought there. I know the Abram went through some testing with cavity size and this bullet pictured below is the design that proved most reliable and effective.

The Abram has very concentric and relatively thin jackets too. This will mean great expansion still at lower impact velocities, but also requires sufficient sectional density to be taken into consideration with shots that would be at higher impact velocities. I'd recommend going with a version no lower than .260, but ideally not lower than .280 if impact velocities will be above 2400-2600fps. The 213gr version below has an SD of .321, for what that's worth. The Abram should be good down to at least 1600fps impact velocity, and perhaps more with sufficient reliability testing to prove or dispute that theory.

The other bullets are some options from Norma. The Tipstrike is what I view as their version of a Hornady ELDX, and also similar to a Nosler Ballistic Tip (similar shaped base and jacket tapering). It has a very short boat tail, which is more or less just a rounded edge, so the aerodynamics and BC won't be as high as a similar weight and diameter ELDX.

The Tipstrike is not bonded, but does feature an interlock ring near the base. This is done in an effort to keep the jacket and core from completely separating as the bullet expands and sheds weight upon impact. Being so far down on the bullet, it won't stop expansion as much as other bullets that have the intetlock rings more towards the middle of the bullet. The jackets on the Tipstrike are quite thick, however, and that'll greatly reduce the ability for expansion at lower impact velocities, even though they taper out thinner at the ogive. Like the ELDX, they'll still expand well at the ogive when dipping into lower impact velocities, but the base will not expand well at lower velocities and that type of performance relies heavily on shot placement and luck. I wouldn't feel confident using this bullet below an impact velocity of 1800fps.

The blue tipped bullet is the Norma Bondstrike. It has a more traditional sized boat tail, which will aid in efficiency in flight and should help retain more velocity, resulting in a higher impact velocity compared to the same weight and same MV Tipstrike, but this is actually a fully bonded bullet, and also has a pretty thick jacket. The rate of expansion with this bullet is going to be much slower than even the Tipstrike, or an Abram, ELDM, TMK, etc. This bullet will do best impacting at high velocities. It would be something that works best fired from a fast pushing magnum cartridge and at close to medium distances. I wouldn't be confident using it below 2000fps, and it may even be best to keep it above 2200fps. So, it's good that it will retain more velocity because it'll need it.

Edit: here's some links to similar threads of mine for those that may be interested:

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/eldm-vs-eldx-construction-wise.312650/

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/sierra-tmk-vs-tgk-gamechanger.312653/

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/bullet-construction.283735/

 

[Petey308]

Here's the BondStrike:

 

[the444shooter]

Again, very impressive detail. Thank you!

Curious about the Abram, as the combination of a small meplat/hollow point and lead all the way to the tip inspires confidence that you wouldn't experience over-expansion. However, I would almost think that it could possibly act like some of the other bullets that get their tips plugged, and don't expand at all.

 

[Petey308]

Again, very impressive detail. Thank you!

Curious about the Abram, as the combination of a small meplat/hollow point and lead all the way to the tip inspires confidence that you wouldn't experience over-expansion. However, I would almost think that it could possibly act like some of the other bullets that get their tips plugged, and don't expand at all.

That was a concern of mine as well, and his earlier prototype did have a smaller opening and experienced reliability issues with expansion. He increased the size of the opening and so far it's been very reliable. The bullet is still young though and I'm not ready just yet to say it's FULLY reliable. I definitely share your concerns and logic.

Once upon a time I did a lot of hunting with OTM style bullets like Sierra MatchKings, Hornady OTM, Berger VLDs, Nosler CC, etc, etc and I experimented with ways to increase reliability with expansion. I found the best tool was a meplat trimmer. I'd widen the opening and clean up the edges at the same time. It worked very well and was much less tedious than things like drilling, jewel filing, annealing, etc.

Fast forward to current times and I sold my meplat trimmer because I stopped using it. I stopped using it because better bullets became available. Tipped bullets like the TMK, AMAX/ ELDM, etc and the hybrid ogive Bergers. So now I just use those types and don't bother with the tedious stuff.

 

[Petey308]

@112Savage after your comment on my other thread about the interlock rings, I thought you'd be interested to see where it is on the TipStrike. It's definitely low like the SST, but it's also jot a boat tail.

Unfortunately, I haven't tested these enough on game to say how much of a difference there is with things like jacket separation or over-expansion.

 

[ButterBean]

Thanks for all the information and pics, are you working with Nathan Foster with your book and all your information

 

[112Savage]

@112Savage after your comment on my other thread about the interlock rings, I thought you'd be interested to see where it is on the TipStrike. It's definitely low like the SST, but it's also jot a boat tail.

Unfortunately, I haven't tested these enough on game to say how much of a difference there is with things like jacket separation or over-expansion.

@Petey308 It is interesting that the tipstrike is low as well. Thats a pretty good looking jacket taper and interlock. In the same podcast Seth Swerzek says that the lead once it expands "gets pulled up from the bottom of the jacket" and can end up above the interlock ring and that's one reason why the moved it up in the ELD-X. I don't really understand how this would happen so until i see a sectioned expanded bullet demonstrating a hollow in the base of the bullet then I would say this may be marketing or postulating.

I'm just a normal dude with a regular day job not involved in ammunition manufacturing, so I really don't know.

 

[B-LOT Banga]

@112Savage Aloha brother, I've too switched to an eldx from a eldm. I've had several cores release from its jacket but all from very dead animals and massive damage. Since switching to the eldx I haven't experienced the same separation issues, in fact I've noticed more pass through. My guess is that since it's not separating it's holding its path straight….. in my opinion the rings work. Shots range from 50 yds out to 500 on goats, sheep and feral cattle.

Eldx left
Eldm right

 

[MSURunner]

@Petey308 It is interesting that the tipstrike is low as well. Thats a pretty good looking jacket taper and interlock. In the same podcast Seth Swerzek says that the lead once it expands "gets pulled up from the bottom of the jacket" and can end up above the interlock ring and that's one reason why the moved it up in the ELD-X. I don't really understand how this would happen so until i see a sectioned expanded bullet demonstrating a hollow in the base of the bullet then I would say this may be marketing or postulating.

If I'm understanding you correctly, then I think that the best analogy of what is happening with the lead core getting pulled up would be if you were to throw a bucket of water through the air. If someone catches the bucket, the water will want to continue onward. If there was some sort of resistance to the water continuing on, the water may return partially back into the bucket, but that separation from the two creates an opportunity for the hollowed out section (water obviously being more inclined to backfill that section than a lead core).

 

[112Savage]

If I'm understanding you correctly, then I think that the best analogy of what is happening with the lead core getting pulled up would be if you were to throw a bucket of water through the air. If someone catches the bucket, the water will want to continue onward. If there was some sort of resistance to the water continuing on, the water may return partially back into the bucket, but that separation from the two creates an opportunity for the hollowed out section (water obviously being more inclined to backfill that section than a lead core).

The backcountry hunting podcast episode 157 is the podcast where Seth Swerczek detailed the genesis of the ELD-X/M bullets and the design differences talking about the core and interlock positioning.

 

[Petey308]

@112Savage Aloha brother, I've too switched to an eldx from a eldm. I've had several cores release from its jacket but all from very dead animals and massive damage. Since switching to the eldx I haven't experienced the same separation issues, in fact I've noticed more pass through. My guess is that since it's not separating it's holding its path straight….. in my opinion the rings work. Shots range from 50 yds out to 500 on goats, sheep and feral cattle.

Eldx left
Eldm right

Hello sir. I wanted to make a few points, if I could, about this. Hopefully this doesn't come off as snobbish or anything like that. I don't want to sound like that at all, and ultimately if what you or anyone else is doing is working for you, by all means don't change just because someone said something different.

So anyway, in your post you say you switched bullets not because they weren't killing fast and very well, but because you perceive that a bullet shouldn't experience core separation, and if it does it's automatically not a good thing (essentially). If I'm putting words in your mouth, I'm not meaning to, that's just how I read it.

My perception is that you have good evidence to make a case, through experience and results, that the ELDM worked great, and no definitive proof to make a case that core separation is overall bad. To that extent, you also have no definitive proof that core retention is overall better, just that it appears to allow for more penetration, which is true. That's why a bullet such as the ELDX or other tough constructed bullet, especially bonded bullets, tends to pencil through under an impact velocity of around 1800fps. The ELDM, on the other hand, will still expand well down to at least 1400fps and usually lower. And where most of the trouble comes from with softer constructed bullets is when using one with insufficient sectional density and/or placing it where it experiences too much resistance upon impact and/or impacts at too high of a velocity. Heavy for caliber is always the way to go for best results with bullets like the ELDM.

I get where this logic comes from. It's common. I thought the same way once, and did so for years. But then I started realizing there was no reason to keep assuming bullets that don't exit are bad when they consistently result in quick and clean kills. It was time to start accepting that non-pass throughs were acceptable when you could indeed ensure sufficient internal trauma, especially with a shutdown of the CNS. I'm not saying it always works, because it doesn't. You still need to know how the limitations work and ensure you're within them. Things like sufficient sectional density, within ideal impact velocity range, adjusting shot placement as necessary to ensure impact resistance is not too much or too little, etc. That's the whole point of a lot of my threads regarding bullet construction and comparisons.

This is meant purely as food for thought and I'm not really trying to push anything on you or anyone else or argue or say you or anyone else is wrong or anything like that, so I hope you don't take it like that. It's not even really directed at you. Your comment was just a good example to build off of.

 

[Petey308]

If I'm understanding you correctly, then I think that the best analogy of what is happening with the lead core getting pulled up would be if you were to throw a bucket of water through the air. If someone catches the bucket, the water will want to continue onward. If there was some sort of resistance to the water continuing on, the water may return partially back into the bucket, but that separation from the two creates an opportunity for the hollowed out section (water obviously being more inclined to backfill that section than a lead core).

I think too it would be like if you put a banana in a narrow cup, then started peeling it and pulling the peel over the cup and down around it. It'll end up pushing the banana itself up and out of the cup. In my head it makes sense anyways lol.

A device like an interlock ring on the cup would help keep the banana from being pulled out of the cup and the peel would just break away in pieces.

Also, the thinner jacket and wider core, particularly with a good deal of mass, helps keep the core from separating too, as discussed in this post:

Yes, they are very good with their marketing .

And yes, they got rid of the cannelure (which does do it's own work in helping to adhere the jacket to the core) to cut down on parasitic drag and help boost the BC a bit more (hence Extreme Low Drag". So in doing so, they moved the interlock ring up more where the cannelure was to still help prevent jacket separation below the ogive section. They worked together before, but if the interlock ring were to have been left low without the cannelure, you'd still potentially run into issues with core separation with high impact velocity shots.

Thinner jackets, like with the ELDM, means wider cores. So the thinner metal, especially in longer, heavier, higher section density versions, tends to still conform well to the core from the forces put upon it during penetration and helps prevent the cores from completely separating. The thicker jackets don't always squeeze down as well and can release the core without a way to help grip it in place, hence the interlock rings. Here's an example of a 208gr ELDM that mushroomed quite well and did not shed the jacket:

View attachment 399024

Either way, good points to bring up and talk about. Thanks.

 

[Petey308]

There are in fact many "hunting" bullets that aren't bonded and do not have means like interlock rings to mechanically bond them. Bullets like any Berger, Sierra GameKings, Tipped GameKings, ProHunters, Nosler Ballistic Tips, etc are all examples. Tons of people use a variety of those every year with great results. Even the trusty Remington Core-Lokt only has a cannelure to help adhere the jacket to the core. They're not actually bonded. There is a bonded version, but the most commonly used ones are not. Here's an example of a couple Core-Lokts:

Just more food for thought…

 

[FEENIX]

@Petey308, I know what it takes to share information like this. I appreciate your time and effort. Cheers!

Ed