sinarms
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone, it sounds like the 6.5mm will be next, I do plan on a 270 too.
btw there will be at least one 458 Sin made some time, I have wanted one for a while now.
Next Sin Cartridge?
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Thanks everyone, it sounds like the 6.5mm will be next, I do plan on a 270 too.
btw there will be at least one 458 Sin made some time, I have wanted one for a while now.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
When and if you head into dangerous game calibers, you may have to work with a good bullet manufacturer for a bullet that holds up well when going thru thick and tough bone / tissue. I've seen bits and pieces of .460 Weatherby mags that came apart on Buffalo (.416's as well). Might also think about a .470! And one hell of a shoulder pad!
gary
Oliveralan
Well-Known Member
What kind of powder capacity behind the 6.5 are you thinking? There is a long thread on here about my 6.5mm Voodoo, a 6.5-300 win mag. A very simple, extreme performance wildcat, uses all factory dies. I would strongly advise against going even larger in case capacity. There is almost nothing to be gained before bullets start coming apart.
My new load runs 3389fps with 72.5gr of Retumbo behind a 140gr Berger hunting VLD through a 1-9tw 28" mcgowen barrel. I didn't hit any pressure signs, but velocity almost stopped increasing. From 71.5 to 73gr Retumbo, the total ES was less than 25fps. It is a very stable load.
At least in my opinion, with my own personal experience i feel this is the upper limit of useful 6.5mm case capacity, i doubt barrel life will be more than 600-750 rounds depending on usage with this wildcat...
In hindsight i should have gone with a 7mm, i believe that is a much better match of powder to bore ratio. The ballistics don't lie, while 17 3/4moa to 1000yards from a 100yard zero is cool, in the end it's wind drift that is the determining factor in true long range hunting/shooting, assuming accurate ranging of the target...
My new load runs 3389fps with 72.5gr of Retumbo behind a 140gr Berger hunting VLD through a 1-9tw 28" mcgowen barrel. I didn't hit any pressure signs, but velocity almost stopped increasing. From 71.5 to 73gr Retumbo, the total ES was less than 25fps. It is a very stable load.
At least in my opinion, with my own personal experience i feel this is the upper limit of useful 6.5mm case capacity, i doubt barrel life will be more than 600-750 rounds depending on usage with this wildcat...
In hindsight i should have gone with a 7mm, i believe that is a much better match of powder to bore ratio. The ballistics don't lie, while 17 3/4moa to 1000yards from a 100yard zero is cool, in the end it's wind drift that is the determining factor in true long range hunting/shooting, assuming accurate ranging of the target...
sinarms
Well-Known Member
Oliveralan, I have read your voodoo thread, I saw your posted speeds and everything. The 6.5 Sin will be the same or maybe a touch better than the 6.5mm STW. I am not a big fan of the belted case so if I make a wildcat it won't be on a belted case. Barrel life is no big deal to me as I can throw a new tube on any time I feel like or grab one of the many other rifles I have.
The 6.5 Sin will have ~15grs more powder capacity than the voodoo so I will be able to hit the same velocitys a lot easier as I and others have suspected are dangerously high out of your rifle and I wouldn't count on getting that out of another one.
Again my cartridges aren't for everyone but they are for some.
The 6.5 Sin will have ~15grs more powder capacity than the voodoo so I will be able to hit the same velocitys a lot easier as I and others have suspected are dangerously high out of your rifle and I wouldn't count on getting that out of another one.
Again my cartridges aren't for everyone but they are for some.
Oliveralan
Well-Known Member
Sinarms, I'm with you, i'm also not a huge fan of belted cartridges. Just built what i did because i had dies, brass and powder lying around and wanted a new project.
15grains more powder than the voodoo.... wow! while it should be interesting, i seriously doubt you will even get 100fps more than my voodoo, all other factors being equal. Simply because there are not many powders that are much slower than what i am already using, as well as the available long range jacketed bullets not being able to withstand such launch speeds. I have no doubt that i'm at the upper edge of what the bergers will tolerate, and i believe that's largely due to the slower twist rate of my barrel, and relatively low round count (no harsh firecracking).
The second paragraph and last statement are extremely similar to Kirby Allen's posts on my voodoo thread. I have 6 firings on all my brass in the mean time, and primers are still coming out round, and new ones sit snugly.... I am not pushing the limits with my 3400fps load at all, i can go 150fps faster with US-869 (would recommend this for your 6.5 Sin, it was able to produce the best velocities for me) but needed 10grains more to do it in the voodoo.
The whole argument about being able to match the velocities produced with lower pressure is a moot point. Your talking about 15grains more powder!! If you were improving the 300 win mag case, or using a 300 wby case, and adding a few grains, ok that's the same velocity with lower pressure... such as the .284 shehane vs .284 winchester, but your saying you want to jump right to a 7 RUM (illustrating my point only). A caliber that requires custom dies, and (assuming your using dakota cases) very expensive brass....
i agree, and i definetely see a nitch for a magazine compatible 338 round like your 338 sin, it's like the 338 norma but utilizes a smaller boltface. Not quite sure what that and a huge 6.5 has in common as you just specified that "your cartridges" are "for some".
Just offering my opinions and responding to your post, not by any means telling you not to develop the round, intellectually i'm interested in reading about it's progress, i just don't see a huge demand for a round like my voodoo, and even less for a larger 6.5... Something i've been wanting to do is a scaled up version of the 6BRX in 7mm or .30cal... that would be really interesting, or use that voodoo+15 grains to make a large 7mm, or 30cal. I just feel past 7mm your really into the negative as far as cost/benefit is concerned, ballistically speaking.
Oliver
15grains more powder than the voodoo.... wow! while it should be interesting, i seriously doubt you will even get 100fps more than my voodoo, all other factors being equal. Simply because there are not many powders that are much slower than what i am already using, as well as the available long range jacketed bullets not being able to withstand such launch speeds. I have no doubt that i'm at the upper edge of what the bergers will tolerate, and i believe that's largely due to the slower twist rate of my barrel, and relatively low round count (no harsh firecracking).
The second paragraph and last statement are extremely similar to Kirby Allen's posts on my voodoo thread. I have 6 firings on all my brass in the mean time, and primers are still coming out round, and new ones sit snugly.... I am not pushing the limits with my 3400fps load at all, i can go 150fps faster with US-869 (would recommend this for your 6.5 Sin, it was able to produce the best velocities for me) but needed 10grains more to do it in the voodoo.
The whole argument about being able to match the velocities produced with lower pressure is a moot point. Your talking about 15grains more powder!! If you were improving the 300 win mag case, or using a 300 wby case, and adding a few grains, ok that's the same velocity with lower pressure... such as the .284 shehane vs .284 winchester, but your saying you want to jump right to a 7 RUM (illustrating my point only). A caliber that requires custom dies, and (assuming your using dakota cases) very expensive brass....
i agree, and i definetely see a nitch for a magazine compatible 338 round like your 338 sin, it's like the 338 norma but utilizes a smaller boltface. Not quite sure what that and a huge 6.5 has in common as you just specified that "your cartridges" are "for some".
Just offering my opinions and responding to your post, not by any means telling you not to develop the round, intellectually i'm interested in reading about it's progress, i just don't see a huge demand for a round like my voodoo, and even less for a larger 6.5... Something i've been wanting to do is a scaled up version of the 6BRX in 7mm or .30cal... that would be really interesting, or use that voodoo+15 grains to make a large 7mm, or 30cal. I just feel past 7mm your really into the negative as far as cost/benefit is concerned, ballistically speaking.
Oliver
sinarms
Well-Known Member
Actually by case design of the Sin cartridges I will be using a faster powder than you do. I am looking at reloader 22 as one of my starting powders. The 338 Sin uses powders like Reloader 19. And by using faster powder I will be able to have a shorter barrel. I will probably have a 24" or 22" barrel to test with.
I will be looking at using the wildcat bullets and others that have a higher BC and can handle the HP.
I will be looking at using the wildcat bullets and others that have a higher BC and can handle the HP.
diriel
Well-Known Member
Could always do a 9.3 Sin 
Gary
Gary
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Oliver, your assumptions are not accurate. The first major point is your 6.5-300 win mag which is a cartridge that has been done for nearly 50 years. It never caught on because it wasn't as good as necking the 300 wby case or the 8mm remington case. Same thing with the 7mm-300 win mag. Both those cases are better and easily outperform the 300 winchester case. I have done all of them and shot them all quite a bit since the 70's.
You must understand you have a miracle one in a million rifle. Enjoy it and shoot it. It is the fastest one by about 150 fps I have ever heard of. I have a 26" barrel 300 wby mag that shoots the exact same numbers as my 300 RUM with a 28" barrel. Easily into the 3400's fps with a 180 grain and easily over 3200 fps with the 200 grain. It should not be assumed anyone can get a 300 wby and it shoot this fast. Just like anyone would be a fool to think they could get the old 6.5-300 win mag and shoot your kind of velocities. Your rifle and mine are so far out of the norm we just enjoy them and move on.
There is absolutely no comparison of the 6.5-300 win mag to the SIN cartridge. The SIN is so far beyond it in all respects. It is a shorter fatter case that is far more efficient than the 300 win mag, 300 wby or 8mm rem mag case and holds quite a bit more powder than either of those. This allows it to utilize faster burning powders getting top velocities in shorter barrels with much better barrel life. It will be faster than the 6.5-300 wby and 6.5 STW which are both 100+fps faster than a 6.5-300 winchester.
The way to wildcat now is by using the new beltless cases available. By improving them they take advantage of more efficient case designs that produce better results with shorter barrels. Headspacing off the shoulder with a beltless cartridge is preffered by most top shooters. Even on a belted case many top shooters including myself set the chamber to headspace off the shoulder anyway. A little difficulty and knowledge are required to prevent case head seperation in front of the belt. But going back and trying to reinvent the wheel by necking the 300 winchester case is not a good idea. We gave up on that one 40 years ago because we could beat it with other cartridges available then. Now there are many others.
I have never shot a 6.5 SIN but I have a good idea what it will do just like I was right on the money with what the 338 SIN would do. Experience allows you to predict those things. I can guarantee anyone it will overwhelm the average 300 winchester necked.
In similarly designed cases increasing powder capacity can make a noticable fps increase with smaller calibers from 7mm down and some even up to 30 cal. But once you get to 338 caliber and larger it takes quite a bit of powder capacity in a similarly designed case to make a noticable difference with most cases we have to work with. This has to do quite a bit with the powder burn rates that can be used. It also has to do with case design and how efficient it is. Larger calibers can utilize faster burning powders better and so can more efficient case designs. Larger bores adds volume for powder burn which is a primary difference for this anomaly. That is why there is hardly any difference in fps from the 340 wby up through the 338 SIN, 338 and 338-300 RUM's and into the 338 Lapua. About 120 fps with 12-15 grains powder difference. 12-15 grains of powder in a 6.5 or 7mm would see a significant velocity increase. That is why you have to get up into the 378 wby, 416 Rigby, or Excalibur case in 338 to see a significant velocity increase over the previous 338's I just listed.
The significant increased powder capacity plus the efficient short, fat SIN case design in 6.5 caliber would overwhelm the 264 winchester or 6.5-300 winchester which are nearly the same thing, within 100 fps difference anyway.
You must understand you have a miracle one in a million rifle. Enjoy it and shoot it. It is the fastest one by about 150 fps I have ever heard of. I have a 26" barrel 300 wby mag that shoots the exact same numbers as my 300 RUM with a 28" barrel. Easily into the 3400's fps with a 180 grain and easily over 3200 fps with the 200 grain. It should not be assumed anyone can get a 300 wby and it shoot this fast. Just like anyone would be a fool to think they could get the old 6.5-300 win mag and shoot your kind of velocities. Your rifle and mine are so far out of the norm we just enjoy them and move on.
There is absolutely no comparison of the 6.5-300 win mag to the SIN cartridge. The SIN is so far beyond it in all respects. It is a shorter fatter case that is far more efficient than the 300 win mag, 300 wby or 8mm rem mag case and holds quite a bit more powder than either of those. This allows it to utilize faster burning powders getting top velocities in shorter barrels with much better barrel life. It will be faster than the 6.5-300 wby and 6.5 STW which are both 100+fps faster than a 6.5-300 winchester.
The way to wildcat now is by using the new beltless cases available. By improving them they take advantage of more efficient case designs that produce better results with shorter barrels. Headspacing off the shoulder with a beltless cartridge is preffered by most top shooters. Even on a belted case many top shooters including myself set the chamber to headspace off the shoulder anyway. A little difficulty and knowledge are required to prevent case head seperation in front of the belt. But going back and trying to reinvent the wheel by necking the 300 winchester case is not a good idea. We gave up on that one 40 years ago because we could beat it with other cartridges available then. Now there are many others.
I have never shot a 6.5 SIN but I have a good idea what it will do just like I was right on the money with what the 338 SIN would do. Experience allows you to predict those things. I can guarantee anyone it will overwhelm the average 300 winchester necked.
In similarly designed cases increasing powder capacity can make a noticable fps increase with smaller calibers from 7mm down and some even up to 30 cal. But once you get to 338 caliber and larger it takes quite a bit of powder capacity in a similarly designed case to make a noticable difference with most cases we have to work with. This has to do quite a bit with the powder burn rates that can be used. It also has to do with case design and how efficient it is. Larger calibers can utilize faster burning powders better and so can more efficient case designs. Larger bores adds volume for powder burn which is a primary difference for this anomaly. That is why there is hardly any difference in fps from the 340 wby up through the 338 SIN, 338 and 338-300 RUM's and into the 338 Lapua. About 120 fps with 12-15 grains powder difference. 12-15 grains of powder in a 6.5 or 7mm would see a significant velocity increase. That is why you have to get up into the 378 wby, 416 Rigby, or Excalibur case in 338 to see a significant velocity increase over the previous 338's I just listed.
The significant increased powder capacity plus the efficient short, fat SIN case design in 6.5 caliber would overwhelm the 264 winchester or 6.5-300 winchester which are nearly the same thing, within 100 fps difference anyway.
longranger,
What is the case capacity of the 6.5 sin, how long is the case?
Also is it a larger diameter like a wsm?
After reading what you posted I hope I didn't make a mistake in building up a 7-300win AI.
I looked at other cases to use like the 375ruger , but after the recommendation from dave kiff at ptg I figured it was worth a try.
Plus the 300win and I share the same birth year.LOL
I will try rws brass and if I can't get the velocity I want ,then I will try win brass that has about 5 more grains capacity.
I was told I will get stw performance and still fit in my mag easily.
I should be able to test it in a coupleof weeks so we will know then.
What do you think would be a target velocity in a 28" barrel with the 162 amax?
I don't mean to sidetrack the thread but your involved post got me thinking. Hmmm?
What is the case capacity of the 6.5 sin, how long is the case?
Also is it a larger diameter like a wsm?
After reading what you posted I hope I didn't make a mistake in building up a 7-300win AI.
I looked at other cases to use like the 375ruger , but after the recommendation from dave kiff at ptg I figured it was worth a try.
Plus the 300win and I share the same birth year.LOL
I will try rws brass and if I can't get the velocity I want ,then I will try win brass that has about 5 more grains capacity.
I was told I will get stw performance and still fit in my mag easily.
I should be able to test it in a coupleof weeks so we will know then.
What do you think would be a target velocity in a 28" barrel with the 162 amax?
I don't mean to sidetrack the thread but your involved post got me thinking. Hmmm?
diriel
Well-Known Member
hypersonic
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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35 cal would be cool but with a lack of long range bullets probably would not be popular. Would work out better than the 358 sta in my opinion and with what I have read on your work so far should be able to either match or increase performance. It would for sure be a thumper on both ends in a rifle that had managable length when you need it.
diriel
Well-Known Member
35 cal = 35 wheelen.... uhh...do whut sir? Cross post? Love the wheelen... for its niche
Gary
Love the wheelen... for its niche Gary
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