This came to me while watching hockey during the play offs. These new sticks the guys are using seem to break and let the players down all the time. Sure they can shoot the puck faster and are lighter to carry but at what cost. Now to me it seems thank goodness our new rifles are more reliable and not as prone to let us down. Then again our old rifles never let us down either. The big difference being our new rifles are supposed to be a more stable platform for bedding. This creating improved accuracy. So what do others think is new better then old for riflmen. If it were for hockey Iwould lean toward old over new. Lets discuss.
New verses old with our rifles.
- Thread starter WildBillG
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KyCarl
Well-Known Member
NEW..If for the better twists only? A much larger range of bullet choices.
Today you can get factory rifles set up that 20 years ago would have been custom only.
Today you can get factory rifles set up that 20 years ago would have been custom only.
D
Deleted member 107796
Guest
Great post because I think folks have seen excellent examples of new technologies that can improve or reduce performance over older technologies. I think one basis to go on is cost reduction in new designs. A stamped steel item or even aluminum/plastic vs machined steel in old rifles can reduce weight and cost but what has been the experience with the new materials? One has been plastic deflection with time and heat so what good is that free floated barrel in the new synthetic stock? I think some great examples of good and bad are going to come up.
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
The new rigs can be just as dependable if they are not pushed beyond their limit. All to often the reason someone get a New rig is because it is advertised as being faster or more accurate. This is not necessarily true
and the only thing that happens is more problems.
Time was when we left the design to the engineers and enjoyed the built in safety and dependability. Now everyone is an expert and thinks that some changes don't come with more problems. Nothing is free, and higher pressures and design changes can cause lots of problems if the person does not understand what he is getting into.
It all sounds good, but there is no free ride. some of the older cartridges are/can be some of the most accurate if set up correctly and fed good ammo. If pushed beyond its design limits, it is another story.
Your analogy using hockey sticks parallels rifle performance well because if you increase the performance, they may let you down at the worst moment.
There are instances where ultimate performance is not a problem while shooting at targets, but when hunting, dependability is a priory.
J E CUSTOM
and the only thing that happens is more problems.
Time was when we left the design to the engineers and enjoyed the built in safety and dependability. Now everyone is an expert and thinks that some changes don't come with more problems. Nothing is free, and higher pressures and design changes can cause lots of problems if the person does not understand what he is getting into.
It all sounds good, but there is no free ride. some of the older cartridges are/can be some of the most accurate if set up correctly and fed good ammo. If pushed beyond its design limits, it is another story.
Your analogy using hockey sticks parallels rifle performance well because if you increase the performance, they may let you down at the worst moment.
There are instances where ultimate performance is not a problem while shooting at targets, but when hunting, dependability is a priory.
J E CUSTOM
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I think we are lucky in our sport both new and old are very reliable. As JE points out though any thing pushed to hard to long will crater. To me I would not refuse either an old or new bolt action rifle both can be made to preform beyond our abilities.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Even good stuff has limits and doesn't necessarily pair well with other new stuff.
Like 'em or hate 'em, muzzle breaks are here to stay, and their overall effect on scopes, and lightweight stocks may not work 100%. When it doesn't identifying the actual source may be missed.
Like 'em or hate 'em, muzzle breaks are here to stay, and their overall effect on scopes, and lightweight stocks may not work 100%. When it doesn't identifying the actual source may be missed.
Don A Parsons
Well-Known Member
I like the older Remmy's and a few others brands from the not to distant past...
Of course I like some of the new stuff as well,,, in regards to rifles that is...
As for cartridges,,, I'm the old school dude with stuff from 1905,,, 60's & 70's since they work ok...
A nice firm rifle stock,,, a few lbs of weigth yet light enough to pack...
One thing I noticed over the years is the triggers,,, if it's not crisp for a clean break away,,, then its time for a price-y Jewel replacement,,, the target units that is...
Another high tech advancement I've noticed over the years is optics,,, that's a whole new ball game for sure,,, glass is expensive up here in Canuka Stan... Ha
Of course I like some of the new stuff as well,,, in regards to rifles that is...
As for cartridges,,, I'm the old school dude with stuff from 1905,,, 60's & 70's since they work ok...
A nice firm rifle stock,,, a few lbs of weigth yet light enough to pack...
One thing I noticed over the years is the triggers,,, if it's not crisp for a clean break away,,, then its time for a price-y Jewel replacement,,, the target units that is...
Another high tech advancement I've noticed over the years is optics,,, that's a whole new ball game for sure,,, glass is expensive up here in Canuka Stan... Ha
I'm with you on that Don being a fellow Canuck we pay dearly for our toys and food and so on and so on. Aw the joys of living in a believedly free country.
I will add glass to this discussion to what good is a fine rifle with out fine glass.
I will add glass to this discussion to what good is a fine rifle with out fine glass.
The more vintage rifles in established calibers are classics with walnut stocks and quality assembly need only trigger changes and bedding. The latest and greatest are very nice except for the plastic stocks and other plastic parts most manufacturers are compelled to include, more than likely due to marketing strategies and they're obviously much cheaper. As mentioned the optics and mounts are light years better now.
Me personally like a lot of the older stuff, but have no issues with the new ether as far as the rifles go. But me personally do not think this "new" wave of cartridges are really much of or any, in most cases, better then the "old" cartridges they are replacing.....really the new powders and new range of bullets are what's nice about ammo now, but I will take a 260 and a 264 win mag all day long!!! Not saying the 6.5creed or the 26nos,...etc are bad just man the old guys are amazing rounds and imho are only now really being able to show what they have with the new powders and bullet tech!!!
P.S.
not just picking on the 6.5s, I feel same way with the 30cals
P.S.
not just picking on the 6.5s, I feel same way with the 30cals
Turtle566
Well-Known Member
Personally I much prefer the older style of hunting rifles, l do not/won't own a hunting rifle without a good timber stock.
The New glass is streets ahead of the old, but I'm still not sold on stainless Steel barrels.
I run mainly anschutz and sako and have an old savage 110- 243 soon to be rebuilt into something with a bit more boondy up its tail.
The New ADI AR22 series of powders are fantastic (extremely temperature stable) and make shooting a pleasure along with the new projectiles coming out, although in Australia, we don't have anywhere near the selection that you do in the States ( would love to have a friend over there so l could buy some 222/243 sledge hammer projectiles.).
Turtle
The New glass is streets ahead of the old, but I'm still not sold on stainless Steel barrels.
I run mainly anschutz and sako and have an old savage 110- 243 soon to be rebuilt into something with a bit more boondy up its tail.
The New ADI AR22 series of powders are fantastic (extremely temperature stable) and make shooting a pleasure along with the new projectiles coming out, although in Australia, we don't have anywhere near the selection that you do in the States ( would love to have a friend over there so l could buy some 222/243 sledge hammer projectiles.).
Turtle
As with any change there is give and take. I still love my old 40X actions, and don't see any benefits to the new "custom" actions that I typically use anymore, but the new customs are "easier" to come by.
Carrying forward with this discussion its going to be hard to compare apples to apples. I don't think that cartridges favor this discussion, as they are mostly marketing gimmicks (in my opinion) and even that has pros and cons.
"New" machining and production processes do allow for higher quality parts to be made, and they are available to anyone who wants them.....but their cost has gone up higher than anyone's cost of living raises. CNC equipment and new coordinate measuring machines allow guys to hold tolerances with ease that were considerably harder/more time consuming to attain even 15 years ago. I like the abilities of "New", but as a Remington fan you can have the new stuff, and as a guy who absolutely does not like Savages, I have to say their new stuff is better than their old (to a point, mainly talking 1970-1990).
This is an interesting topic OP, can't wait to see all the responses. Keep them coming guys.
Carrying forward with this discussion its going to be hard to compare apples to apples. I don't think that cartridges favor this discussion, as they are mostly marketing gimmicks (in my opinion) and even that has pros and cons.
"New" machining and production processes do allow for higher quality parts to be made, and they are available to anyone who wants them.....but their cost has gone up higher than anyone's cost of living raises. CNC equipment and new coordinate measuring machines allow guys to hold tolerances with ease that were considerably harder/more time consuming to attain even 15 years ago. I like the abilities of "New", but as a Remington fan you can have the new stuff, and as a guy who absolutely does not like Savages, I have to say their new stuff is better than their old (to a point, mainly talking 1970-1990).
This is an interesting topic OP, can't wait to see all the responses. Keep them coming guys.
ntsqd
Well-Known Member
I see this as kind of an Art vs. Science thing. To the guy who sees his hunting rifle(s) as mere tools; new, because they are tools and they should be built in the manner to does the job the most economically. To the guy who sees his hunting rifle(s) as useful Art; old because new stuff just doesn't look much like Art. Pretty hard to appreciate that there is any Art in something that has 300,000 identical brothers.
Not to say that there can't be Art in new rifles, even mass produced new rifles, or that old rifles aren't useful tools. I see value in products with identical brothers. Who wants to have to make or modify a part just to change the oil filter on your truck? I also see value in one of a kind articles, be they a rifle, a truck, or anything else for that matter.
What was mentioned above about Design Envelope is important. Push anything near the edge of it's design envelope or past it and you now have a finicky and likely unreliable item. If a printing press is designed for a max production rate of 500 pages a minute, asking it to produce 1,000 pages a minute is foolish and destructive. Yet this sort of thing is all too frequent.
Not to say that there can't be Art in new rifles, even mass produced new rifles, or that old rifles aren't useful tools. I see value in products with identical brothers. Who wants to have to make or modify a part just to change the oil filter on your truck? I also see value in one of a kind articles, be they a rifle, a truck, or anything else for that matter.
What was mentioned above about Design Envelope is important. Push anything near the edge of it's design envelope or past it and you now have a finicky and likely unreliable item. If a printing press is designed for a max production rate of 500 pages a minute, asking it to produce 1,000 pages a minute is foolish and destructive. Yet this sort of thing is all too frequent.
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
I own and shoot a 60's 308 Small Mauser action built by Husquvarna and imported by Smith and Wesson. The raceways on the bolt are as good as or better than my one off custom built hunting rifle, fitment is just as good as and it shoots out to 500 yards as good as (my custom built rifle). Don't take it hunting because it has a wood Monte Carlo stock that is flawless and S&W imported less than 1200 into the country so it's worth some money to the right collector which presently, is me.
Bought it at an estate auction for 300 bucks and contemplated shooting it for a year before I actually built a load for it and shot it. Bought it unfired with cosmoline on it.
Wears a 1" Vortex side focus 4-16 scope, nothing fancy, in Bruce Talley rings. I load 165 Bergers or Sierra's in Lapua brass with a proper charge and jump.
Fine rifle and Husky knows how to build a fine sporting rifle. Not just chainsaws.
Bought it at an estate auction for 300 bucks and contemplated shooting it for a year before I actually built a load for it and shot it. Bought it unfired with cosmoline on it.
Wears a 1" Vortex side focus 4-16 scope, nothing fancy, in Bruce Talley rings. I load 165 Bergers or Sierra's in Lapua brass with a proper charge and jump.
Fine rifle and Husky knows how to build a fine sporting rifle. Not just chainsaws.
