New sniper record

[bigbuck]

Ring,

Just curious if you were trying to support or disprove the topic of this post with your video?

As a rifle builder, I cringed as you kept throwing shot after shot, after shot at that target. The rifle shot decently well for the first 3 shots although I did not see the second shot impact. After that things started to fly pretty wild, looked to be around 3 moa in total group size and the group really opened up as you kept shooting.

Shooting at a mile is very difficult in good conditions, in the wind or mirage its extremely difficult even with the highest level of performance we have today.

This is one of our best groups at 1780 yards. The three top impacts were fired in one string late in the day when mirage settled down because of cloud cover. Earlier in the day, the shooting conditions were actually much better as far as wind but mirage was so bad, I shot at the gong 5 times and only got one hit, the one at the very bottom edge of the plate. There was no adjustment made from the two shooting sessions, just goes to show you how difficult it can be, even with a rifle that is capable of 4" groups at 1 mile, conditions are everything.

Fiftydriver, You build one tuff lookin rifle !!
I sure wish I had the $$ to purchase one

I have heard several chime in and say things like "no way" "impossible" "Miracle" "Luck" and other comments but think of it this way . How many times would you have the local hunters in your home town tell you these very same things if you were to say "I saw a guy that goes by fiftydriver on the internet shoot one heck of a 3 shot group @ 1780 yards" My point is this some of the guys on this very site shoot very very good and I will agree that their is a certain amount of luck with anyone that kills an elk at say 1300 yards or even 1200 yards but do we shout "Luck" "miracle" nope we post encouraging comments about them and in reality it encourages us as well to see them making these shots in a sence it gives the rest of us a goal to shoot for . So did the media hipe it up maybe but I still say chalk one up fore the brave sniper because unlike our targets HIS SHOOT BACK !!

We need to be careful not to critisize when someone steps out of the norm .
Or we could sound like the ole timey hunters of yesterday with the 06 that thought 250 yards was a long way and you shouldn't shoot at a deer any further because it was not "ethical" .

P.S. Good shooting fiftydriver!!

BigBuck

 

[morpheus32]

Gents,

If I may add a couple of points here. Firstly we only have the written account from a reporter who utilized second hand info, google and the need to make a nifty story to sell to his paper. His aim was not to provide the historical record but rather sell newspapers...and a tabloid one at that. So I think it is fair to say that we don't have all the details. It will take time before there is a more detailed release of info from the MoD. The historical record will come in the fullness of time.

As I was in the chain of command when the previous record in 2002 was achieved...I can also comment on the lack of details. The CF wanted to make sure we could verify the record. It took a while before it was recognized. There was lots of agonizing and discussion. In the end, it took almost a year before it was publicized. The CF was particularly concerned about the Persec/Opsec on the shooters and the circumstances. Later, in the fullness of time, it was less of a concern. I would suggest the MoD in the UK is likely going through the same process. The Household Cav are a rather prestigious unit in the UK. I believe they are making sure all the facts are in before they make a statement. Otherwise they will look the fool. I was just on the MOD website…no press release as of yet 5 May 10 1200 Mountain time. I would not expect one for a long time.

I would suggest before we mentally masturbate over the little "facts" we have, that we wait for some more detail. Then again, as per internet rules, we must say something or comment! Tis the rules.

 

[Bravo 4]

I still say chalk one up fore the brave sniper because unlike our targets HIS SHOOT BACK !!
BigBuck

Being the Senior Sniper/Section SGT for my Infantry BN I have seen some incredible shooting from some talented individuals at some very extended ranges. I understand about peoples beliefs, I hit a crow this year at 1060 yards and if I was to tell people that I hit a crow at that range they would think I was either fibbing or plain ole nuts. That's because they are ignorant on the subject. I base my opinion on being more educated. Like I said, I hope it really happened. Whatever you want to call it, Lucky-Miracle-or just Talented... God Bless'em!

 

[Ring]

to be 100% honest, its a mix of luck and skill...

the skill was accurately getting the distance and wind factors
getting the shot
and putting the bullet on "target"...


the luck..

the wind not changing along the route
the ammo was consistent, figure its a 1MOA gun... at 2700y 1 MOA is 27+"
that alone could equal a miss on that size of a target even under 100% perfect conditions...

 

[bigbuck]

Being the Senior Sniper/Section SGT for my Infantry BN I have seen some incredible shooting from some talented individuals at some very extended ranges. I understand about peoples beliefs, I hit a crow this year at 1060 yards and if I was to tell people that I hit a crow at that range they would think I was either fibbing or plain ole nuts. That's because they are ignorant on the subject. I base my opinion on being more educated. Like I said, I hope it really happened. Whatever you want to call it, Lucky-Miracle-or just Talented... God Bless'em!

A crow at 1,060 Good shootin ! I sat up on the top of a MTN one time . Their was a pond in the valley with one little ducky by itself my LRF 1200 ranged 1197 to the dam of the pond the duck was another 40 or 50 yards away . So I dial up he's swimming around slowly but I lead the shot and boom splatt the water ripples very close I slam another round in and this time he's swimming directly away from me bam I send another one . I guess I shot 15 or 20 rounds at that duck I got extremely close but never hit it . I sure had a ball trying though

BigBuck

 

[Fiftydriver]

BigBuck,

I hear what your saying but I am not commenting on this shot as someone that has never shot at this range. I am commenting on this as someone that has EXTENSIVE long range ballistic testing experience with chamberings so far exceeding the performance of the weapon used in this instance that they are not even worth commenting about.

Simply put and again, this is not opinion, this is fact, a bullet that drops out of super sonic velocity in flight will have severe if not complete stability failure. Depending on elevation, this will be from 1050 to 1100 fps.

When I say a bullet will have stability failure, I mean it will not fly true and often times will tumble with no consistancy in any way. Even at very high elevation, super sonic velocity limits of this combo will be around 2200 yards.

Again, I have tested the 338 Edge, 338 Lapua, 338 Kahn, 338 AX and 338 AM at ranges out to well past the super sonic velocity range of each of these chamberings. In every case, within 50 yards of predicted velocity drop below super sonic velocity, accuracy goes completely away.

In most cases, bullets did not impact close enough to the target to even see where they impacted. If an occasional impact was seen, it would be very inconsistant and totally unpredictable as to where it would actually land, even 50 to 100 yards past the point where the bullet dropped out of super sonic velocity.

The ONLY combo I have seen that remained accuracy and consistant, by that I mean better then 1 moa accuracy for groups at +2700 yards is my 338 Allen Magnum loaded with a 265 gr Aluminum tipped rebated Boattail at 3550 fps. Now this bullet has a BC of .9 so you can see the extreme increase in performance that this round has over the Lapua.

Again, I am not saying anything against this because its to wild to be true and because I simply do not believe it can be done. I know exactly what happens when these bullets drop out of super sonic velocity.

Would the bullet have enough energy to kill the target at this range, certainly and its totally possible that a kill was made but I have a very hard time accepting that three shots, three kills happened......

Even shooting out to 2000 yards would not raise any red flags by me because most any 338 Lapua load with a long range bullet would sustain super sonic velocity past 2000 yards and as such consistant bullet impact would be very practical.

 

[liltank]

If I remember there was a gentleman on this sight that was trying to hit a piece of plywood from 2400 or 2600 yards. He tried with 300SMK's and found that after 1800+yards they fell unstable. He then changed over to the Hornady 250 BTHP's and found that he was much more consistent and even hit the board once or twice. Again we get into a bullet design controversy verses performance of a supposed superior bullet with more weight. Being able to push the bullet harder and faster created better circumstances. If I also remember the shooter at this target had to have ideal conditions to attempt this shot. When he had the proper conditions he was able to come close to or successfully hit the target. He also used about 145MOA to get there. This required maxing his reticule and elevation adjustments. He also had to utilize the power adjustments to get everything to jive. Soooo... now that, that topic came back to memory, I'm thinking it could be very possible by the comment of, the wind was calm. What is the one thing the Taliban wear that would be a tell tale sign that if there were a wind? They always wear loose turbans, or some type of loose clothing that will show a breeze. Just a thought. This may have been an instance where the ammo was that exact bullet or something close. Something tells me it was a Lapua 250 Scenar. If that is the case, IMHO it is a capable bullet for that type of warfare.

Tank

 

[liltank]

Found it! It was Topshot and attempting a 2285yard shot. Still a long way, but not quite the yardage I could remember. At least I found the topic. Anyway, that is all for now.... carry on!

Tank Out!

 

[Shawn Carlock]

I am interested in the technique employed if all supporting info is accurate. If the weapon was zeroed for 100 yards and the drop was 160+ MOA, and you have 100 MOA from your zero how did they allow for the other 65 MOA? Hold over? At 65 MOA the target would not even be in the field of view of the scope by about 25-30 moa or so. I won't call BS on this guys accomplishments but my experience mirrors Kirbys as far as subsonic bullet performance goes. I would bet alot of money on 1 moa shots in good conditions out to sub sonic range, but after that I wouldn't bet I could hit my truck all the time. We tried to shoot a clay bank at just over 2700 yards (according to Google earth) and once we got a round to impact the bank I could not keep my shots on the bank that was about 30 feet long and 15-18 feet high. Maybe the guy just possess skills I do not.

 

[Pdvdh]

It makes for an interesting Thread, but I wouldn't spend too much time contemplating the possibilities as to what did, or didn't, happen at this time. I interact with reporters in my career every now and then. They periodically seek information from me in support of some subject of interest they want to report on. After discussing these topics of information with me, they present the information in their written articles accurately and correctly around 50% of the time. And that's when the reporters are truely interested in presenting an objective article. When they have a slant they want to present, the odds of them reporting accurate information are about the same as going three-for-three at 2700 yds with a semi-automatic pistol.

 

[Ring]

I am interested in the technique employed if all supporting info is accurate. If the weapon was zeroed for 100 yards and the drop was 160+ MOA, and you have 100 MOA from your zero how did they allow for the other 65 MOA? Hold over? At 65 MOA the target would not even be in the field of view of the scope by about 25-30 moa or so. I won't call BS on this guys accomplishments but my experience mirrors Kirbys as far as subsonic bullet performance goes. I would bet alot of money on 1 moa shots in good conditions out to sub sonic range, but after that I wouldn't bet I could hit my truck all the time. We tried to shoot a clay bank at just over 2700 yards (according to Google earth) and once we got a round to impact the bank I could not keep my shots on the bank that was about 30 feet long and 15-18 feet high. Maybe the guy just possess skills I do not.

dont assume the gun was zeroed @ 100, if you in a area, hunting targets @ 300+ consistantly, you may zero the gun there.. or farther

 

[britz]

the difference between 100 yard zero and 300 yard zero is minimal.... were talking a difference of at least 35MOA to 65moa that need to be accounted for. That would mean the rifle would have to have an absolute minimum zero range of about 1000 yards or more.... not likely for a combat rifle.

As others have stated... I'm not doubting the shooters abilities, just the story that is told.

 

[Capstick]

I am sure the soldiers that he protected are not to worried about a record. I would be happy to have him protecting my back any day. If it is a record sweet, if not it really does not make a difference to the 2 Taliban fighters.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Ring,

I have NEVER known any military trained precision shooter that did not zero their rifle at 100 yards. The problem with zeroing at longer ranges is that in different conditions you will have greater variation in your predicted trajectory if zeroed at 300 yards.

By that I mean a zero at 300 yards in one condition will usually be noticably different in a different set of conditions.

100 yard zeros will stay very consistant from area to area simply because its close enough that environemtal conditions just do not effect the point of impact much at all at this range. As such you have a consistant standard zero point to work off from for figuring down range bullet trajectory points.

Also, the difference between a 300 yard zero and a 100 yard zero at 2700 yards means absolutely nothing. To get any meaningful differences, you would have to zero at ranges of 800 yards or even 1000 yards and I do not know of anyone that would zero at this range in the event that a life saving shot was needed at closer range.

Remember that the sniper is in a war, they may be required to fight at close range as well with their weapon and a rifle zeroed at 1000 yards would be pretty well useless in a close quaters fight.