New Rifle has me Perplexed

imartin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2018
Messages
418
Location
Southeastern Pennsylvania
I recently purchased a Weatherby Vanguard TR Sub-MOA Series 1 (One, not Two) model off GunBroker for a price which rendered me incapable of keeping my trigger finger off the bid button. It was listed as New Old Stock, had some handling marks, but had not been sold (or shot) prior. The rifle is chambered for 308 Win, has a B&C Stock, a free-floated barrel that measures 22" long and around .700" at the muzzle, and has what I believe is a 1:12" twist. The specific focus of this thread is the barrel.

As I do with any new (to me) rifle, I cleaned it and lubed it as needed before heading to the range. I clean my rifle bores with BoreTech Eliminator. This is pretty much the only solvent I use on my bores and works great for me. I usually start out by running 3 patches saturated with Eliminator, letting it sit for 10-15 minutes, then following with a saturated patch every 10 minutes, until i determine the job is done. I can't recall if I got any blue on the patches when I cleaned it out of the box, but I am guessing there was at least some. I did note that barrel cleaned easily and was smooth pushing a cotton patch with a .30 cal jag.

Last week I headed to the range for my usual barrel break-in/sight-in ritual. I was shooting Federal Gold Medal 168 SMK. My break-in process is to shoot 1 shot, clean, repeat, until velocity becomes consistent, the cleaning gets easier, and/or there is little to no bluing on the patches during the cleaning process. I was expecting that this process would take 15 to 25 rounds being that it was a factory rifle with a chrome-moly barrel. I bore sighted the scope, took my first shot, noted where it was on the target, made my scope adjustments, and put the gun in a lead sled for some saturated patches of BoreTech Eliminator. Ran three patches down the bore and went to go shoot handguns. Came back 15 minutes later and followed up with another wet Eliminator patch.

To my surprise, there was no sign of copper on the patch, just carbon, and only a small amount since 3 wet patches had already been down the bore. So i ran 3 more saturated patches, let it sit another 10 minutes, more rounds through the handguns, and came back to an all but clean follow up patch.

While my brain could not quite accept that I had gotten little to no sign of copper after that first shot, i dried out the bore and chamber, put the rifle back on the bags, and took the second shot. Same cleaning process, very similar results.

Decided to shoot a 3 shot group thinking that for sure there would be copper fouling then. Nope, wrong again.

Shot a 5 shot group and went home. Cleaned it when I got home. No copper.

I started to wonder whether Federal is using a powder with a de-coppering (spelling?) agent such as the IMR Enduron line. I should note that I was a little bit confused when I was cleaning the barrel as I was never quite able to get a completely clean white patch to come out, it always had some crud on it, which reminded me of grease, almost brownish in color, as if I had never cleaned it from the factory. I could have been residual dirt off the nylon brush I was using at the range, but could this be a result of a powder that has a "copper eliminator agent" in it? Am I just seeing things because I can't wrap my head around the idea of there not being any copper out of a new barrel.

I'm slightly shocked and pretty confused. Have you guys ever experienced a factory rifle that did not copper foul at all right from the start like this. I mean, I am a big fan of Weatherby, I think the Howa built rifles are a fantastic rifle for the money, but I don't even expect this from aftermarket barrels and have never experienced this with a new barrel before.

Do you guys have any thoughts, opinions, experiences to share?

P.S. - I know it's only 10 shots, but I think this gun is going to be a shooter and an even better bargain than I expected. Can't wait to start tuning loads for it, but have 90 more rounds of Fed GM 168 SMK's I am going to put through it.
 
I recently purchased a Weatherby Vanguard TR Sub-MOA Series 1 (One, not Two) model off GunBroker for a price which rendered me incapable of keeping my trigger finger off the bid button. It was listed as New Old Stock, had some handling marks, but had not been sold (or shot) prior. The rifle is chambered for 308 Win, has a B&C Stock, a free-floated barrel that measures 22" long and around .700" at the muzzle, and has what I believe is a 1:12" twist. The specific focus of this thread is the barrel.

As I do with any new (to me) rifle, I cleaned it and lubed it as needed before heading to the range. I clean my rifle bores with BoreTech Eliminator. This is pretty much the only solvent I use on my bores and works great for me. I usually start out by running 3 patches saturated with Eliminator, letting it sit for 10-15 minutes, then following with a saturated patch every 10 minutes, until i determine the job is done. I can't recall if I got any blue on the patches when I cleaned it out of the box, but I am guessing there was at least some. I did note that barrel cleaned easily and was smooth pushing a cotton patch with a .30 cal jag.

Last week I headed to the range for my usual barrel break-in/sight-in ritual. I was shooting Federal Gold Medal 168 SMK. My break-in process is to shoot 1 shot, clean, repeat, until velocity becomes consistent, the cleaning gets easier, and/or there is little to no bluing on the patches during the cleaning process. I was expecting that this process would take 15 to 25 rounds being that it was a factory rifle with a chrome-moly barrel. I bore sighted the scope, took my first shot, noted where it was on the target, made my scope adjustments, and put the gun in a lead sled for some saturated patches of BoreTech Eliminator. Ran three patches down the bore and went to go shoot handguns. Came back 15 minutes later and followed up with another wet Eliminator patch.

To my surprise, there was no sign of copper on the patch, just carbon, and only a small amount since 3 wet patches had already been down the bore. So i ran 3 more saturated patches, let it sit another 10 minutes, more rounds through the handguns, and came back to an all but clean follow up patch.

While my brain could not quite accept that I had gotten little to no sign of copper after that first shot, i dried out the bore and chamber, put the rifle back on the bags, and took the second shot. Same cleaning process, very similar results.

Decided to shoot a 3 shot group thinking that for sure there would be copper fouling then. Nope, wrong again.

Shot a 5 shot group and went home. Cleaned it when I got home. No copper.

I started to wonder whether Federal is using a powder with a de-coppering (spelling?) agent such as the IMR Enduron line. I should note that I was a little bit confused when I was cleaning the barrel as I was never quite able to get a completely clean white patch to come out, it always had some crud on it, which reminded me of grease, almost brownish in color, as if I had never cleaned it from the factory. I could have been residual dirt off the nylon brush I was using at the range, but could this be a result of a powder that has a "copper eliminator agent" in it? Am I just seeing things because I can't wrap my head around the idea of there not being any copper out of a new barrel.

I'm slightly shocked and pretty confused. Have you guys ever experienced a factory rifle that did not copper foul at all right from the start like this. I mean, I am a big fan of Weatherby, I think the Howa built rifles are a fantastic rifle for the money, but I don't even expect this from aftermarket barrels and have never experienced this with a new barrel before.

Do you guys have any thoughts, opinions, experiences to share?

P.S. - I know it's only 10 shots, but I think this gun is going to be a shooter and an even better bargain than I expected. Can't wait to start tuning loads for it, but have 90 more rounds of Fed GM 168 SMK's I am going to put through it.
the only barrels I have seen act this way on break in were clay spencer barrels I own three and each one was this way and each one is a very good shooter you got lucky and got a barrel with a very smooth bore I cant believe this happened on a factory rifle but you never know
 
I recently purchased a Weatherby Vanguard TR Sub-MOA Series 1 (One, not Two) model off GunBroker for a price which rendered me incapable of keeping my trigger finger off the bid button. It was listed as New Old Stock, had some handling marks, but had not been sold (or shot) prior. The rifle is chambered for 308 Win, has a B&C Stock, a free-floated barrel that measures 22" long and around .700" at the muzzle, and has what I believe is a 1:12" twist. The specific focus of this thread is the barrel.

As I do with any new (to me) rifle, I cleaned it and lubed it as needed before heading to the range. I clean my rifle bores with BoreTech Eliminator. This is pretty much the only solvent I use on my bores and works great for me. I usually start out by running 3 patches saturated with Eliminator, letting it sit for 10-15 minutes, then following with a saturated patch every 10 minutes, until i determine the job is done. I can't recall if I got any blue on the patches when I cleaned it out of the box, but I am guessing there was at least some. I did note that barrel cleaned easily and was smooth pushing a cotton patch with a .30 cal jag.

Last week I headed to the range for my usual barrel break-in/sight-in ritual. I was shooting Federal Gold Medal 168 SMK. My break-in process is to shoot 1 shot, clean, repeat, until velocity becomes consistent, the cleaning gets easier, and/or there is little to no bluing on the patches during the cleaning process. I was expecting that this process would take 15 to 25 rounds being that it was a factory rifle with a chrome-moly barrel. I bore sighted the scope, took my first shot, noted where it was on the target, made my scope adjustments, and put the gun in a lead sled for some saturated patches of BoreTech Eliminator. Ran three patches down the bore and went to go shoot handguns. Came back 15 minutes later and followed up with another wet Eliminator patch.

To my surprise, there was no sign of copper on the patch, just carbon, and only a small amount since 3 wet patches had already been down the bore. So i ran 3 more saturated patches, let it sit another 10 minutes, more rounds through the handguns, and came back to an all but clean follow up patch.

While my brain could not quite accept that I had gotten little to no sign of copper after that first shot, i dried out the bore and chamber, put the rifle back on the bags, and took the second shot. Same cleaning process, very similar results.

Decided to shoot a 3 shot group thinking that for sure there would be copper fouling then. Nope, wrong again.

Shot a 5 shot group and went home. Cleaned it when I got home. No copper.

I started to wonder whether Federal is using a powder with a de-coppering (spelling?) agent such as the IMR Enduron line. I should note that I was a little bit confused when I was cleaning the barrel as I was never quite able to get a completely clean white patch to come out, it always had some crud on it, which reminded me of grease, almost brownish in color, as if I had never cleaned it from the factory. I could have been residual dirt off the nylon brush I was using at the range, but could this be a result of a powder that has a "copper eliminator agent" in it? Am I just seeing things because I can't wrap my head around the idea of there not being any copper out of a new barrel.

I'm slightly shocked and pretty confused. Have you guys ever experienced a factory rifle that did not copper foul at all right from the start like this. I mean, I am a big fan of Weatherby, I think the Howa built rifles are a fantastic rifle for the money, but I don't even expect this from aftermarket barrels and have never experienced this with a new barrel before.

Do you guys have any thoughts, opinions, experiences to share?

P.S. - I know it's only 10 shots, but I think this gun is going to be a shooter and an even better bargain than I expected. Can't wait to start tuning loads for it, but have 90 more rounds of Fed GM 168 SMK's I am going to put through it.
I had a vanguard 300 wby mag years ago that acted the same way just stayed clean it seemed like. It shot everything from 110 grain Sierra hp's to Berger 168 grain vld's into one jagged hole. Never tested the Sierra's at 300 yards but the Berger's still had a single hole at that distance. It was an amazing shooter for a factory rifle!
 
First off Congrats on a great cleaning routine , it's that with a combined Very good factory bbl. Your not letting any copper build up,or carbon residue doing the same ,for your labor your going to have a bbl that's happy to perform the way they all should ,but sadly their all not built the same . I've owned a Weatherby Vanguard in a 300 Bee ,they Make great Rifles& shotguns , soooooo enjoy & keep up your Great work ethic !.
 
The barrels were from Kreiger's button rifle division now Criterion barrels. The TR barrels were cut barrels in both the Vangard and MarkV version. Kreiger may have only lapped the VG barrels after reaming instead of after both processes but it sounds like your barrel was lapped like the current procedure after both reaming and cutting the grooves. That would leave the throat the only possible rough spot. A new or freshly sharpened reamer with the perfect pilot size would cut that down as well.
I've shot a bunch of 1st gen vangards and 7 gen2's 1 7mag wouldn't shoot more than 1 load sub moa. Most will shoot a variety of box ammo under 1moa and the ones I've worked with have shot at least 1 group in the .25 or better range with good load development. The only issues have been triggers and bedding. Mine was fixed with polishing the faces and spring for along time. I swapped it for a timney set at 20oz when my safety was suspect trying to get down this low with the factory trigger.
FWIW I would start loading now while the rifle is not showing copper. If nothing else for seating your preferred bullet. I would suggest using the 175tmk or 178eld for the 12tw. They shoot better beyond 600 than the 168/175smk in the wind. I shoot the 168's for classes mostly inside of 650yds. The 150 Lehigh in my rifle works out to a G1.520 at the speeds I run them at.
 
My other vanguard is a 25-06. Also a series 1. A great rifle but this 308 is on a different level
A 308 is always on a different level provided the rifle is put together right I am glad you got such a good one regardless if its been shot before or not
 
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The barrels were from Kreiger's button rifle division now Criterion barrels. The TR barrels were cut barrels in both the Vangard and MarkV version. Kreiger may have only lapped the VG barrels after reaming instead of after both processes but it sounds like your barrel was lapped like the current procedure after both reaming and cutting the grooves. That would leave the throat the only possible rough spot. A new or freshly sharpened reamer with the perfect pilot size would cut that down as well.
I've shot a bunch of 1st gen vangards and 7 gen2's 1 7mag wouldn't shoot more than 1 load sub moa. Most will shoot a variety of box ammo under 1moa and the ones I've worked with have shot at least 1 group in the .25 or better range with good load development. The only issues have been triggers and bedding. Mine was fixed with polishing the faces and spring for along time. I swapped it for a timney set at 20oz when my safety was suspect trying to get down this low with the factory trigger.
FWIW I would start loading now while the rifle is not showing copper. If nothing else for seating your preferred bullet. I would suggest using the 175tmk or 178eld for the 12tw. They shoot better beyond 600 than the 168/175smk in the wind. I shoot the 168's for classes mostly inside of 650yds. The 150 Lehigh in my rifle works out to a G1.520 at the speeds I run them at.

That is good info. I didn't realize that some Vanguards got the Krieger/Criterion barrels as well. My memory of those barrels was that they went on Mark V rifles, specifically the Accumark, but that is tapping into info I ran across about 10 years ago. If the rifle does indeed have one of those barrels on it, that makes it an even better buy and explains quite a bit. My other Criterion required little break in.

The 3 other vanguards I have shot, my S1 25-06 and 2 S2's in 7mm RM, have all been shooters. I like the new HACT trigger. Swapped the factory trigger for a Timney on my 25-06 after a trigger job didn't get me the clean trigger i was looking for. The trigger on this 308 is sweet though. Nice pull weight (but I don't need them super light), no discernible movement when you are breaking the shot. Really impressed all the way around with this rifle.

I have a box of 168 ELDM's I will play with first. Figure I will load the Federal GM brass, use Fed GM210M and have both H4895 and IMR 8208 XBR, both of which look like they should be in the ball park for 308 Win. Have a set of RCBS Gold Medal dies i picked up for a really good price. Will be my first experience with these dies from RCBS so looking forward to trying something else new.

Thanks for the reply,
 
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