Neck sizing for accuracy

[Alex Wheeler]

The reason benchrest shooters now use FL sizing has nothing to do with accuracy... it has to do with shooting style.

BR shooting has broken into two camps. The "group size" camp, and the "score" camp.

Originally, all BR shooting was "Group". It was easy to measure the group size in the beginning, a steel tape measure was good enough. Then, a vernier was needed, then a vernier with a magnifying glass was needed.

But the darn groups kept getting smaller and smaller, until most local matches were having shooters getting groups in the 0.15" to 0.12" range. Then several judges need to estimate the size and the average was the "official" group size, and people were constantly arguing about the measurements so nothing could move forward until 12 guys measured Ol' Charlie's target.
It took so long to measure the targets that it got impossible to hold a match.

So, "Score" BR evolved. It was easy peasy - five targets, one shot in each target, with standard scoring rings and a teeny dot in the middle for an "X". No arguments about what the score was.
It was possible to shoot a "perfect score" with a rifle that shot 0.3" groups, which would get you laughed off the shooting line at any real "Group" BR match.
Hell, 7 of my 9 woodchuck rifles shoot better than that!

Because Score BR matches are so easy to run, almost no one holds group matches any more - the closest Group matches from my home (in central Connecticut) is a 9 hour drive, so I don't shoot bench rest any more - my BR rifles are now in field stocks.

Almost all "group" BR shooters use neck sizing, or special dies that do not size the body, only the neck and "maybe" touch the shoulder.

The thing about Score shooting is it is done real fast. You go to watch a Score BR match and you see 8 million wind flags on the field, and hardly any shooting, until the wind gets steady, then, holy crap, it is a battle field, with shooters shooting their whole 5 shot string in 15 to 20 seconds, and praying that they got lucky.

With this kind of shooting, there can be no tightness of the case in the chamber - the round must slip in the chamber like a "rat turd into a violin case", or the rifle might shift in the sand bags and all is lost cuz it must be reset in the bags, and by then, the wind has changed.

If you neck size and anneal from time to time, your cases will last forever - which might mean something when premium brass can go for a buck or more each, and you spend a lot of time trimming, annealing and fireforming them.

If you FL size your cases with standard FL dies, you WILL get head separations at some point, it is inevitable.

Different opinions are fine but there's a lot wrong with this post. Like you said you are not involved in bench rest anymore. Group shooters shoot faster than anyone they are not moving to different points of aim, And everything done in this sport is for accuracy. I do not mean to come across as rude but you are not talking from current experience. I don't know a group shooter that is neck sizing like you state. But aside from that this is about long range hunting and on the bigger cases where we are typically running very high pressure you don't want to allow the web to get to the point that it's causing extraction issues. Because once that happens a lot of times you cannot fix it by full length sizing. If we maintain it every single time with a full length die we will never have extraction problems. That actually goes for any case that is running at the high end of pressure. And in many cases we are running these cases over pressure but they will handle it due to quality components. Neck sizing just will not work at these high pressure levels a fired case will not re chamber. There's no reason to change your methods if they are working for you but we need to be honest about current procedures and why they are being used.

 

[Gater]

I am far from the best shooter out here but I can shoot
1/2 MOA at 200 with my .223 and I prefer not to FLS I have no trouble closing the bolt or ejecting fired cases.

 

[jbs2014]

With respect to reloading, new brass doesn't count. It's only the way it is for one shot. 2-3thou is excess bump, 10thou is dead wrong.

So what is acceptable bump? What are the consequences of .002-.003?

I now know the .010 is bad, learned that the hard way, I have 40 pieces of .338-378 brass that are kaput.

 

[Mikecr]

So what is acceptable bump? What are the consequences of .002-.003? I now know the .010 is bad, learned that the hard way, I have 40 pieces of .338-378 brass that are kaput.

I see all sizing as bad, in that there is nothing free about. So I size minimally, and by default I refer to any more than needed as excess.

I bump 1-1.5thou.
1thou for ammo I'm shooting within the week, and I verify every single case is right on the money.
1.5thou is for ammo to be shot later in the year, as some energy added will counter release over a month or so. For this, I also adjust neck sizing length -20%, and add 2thou of primer crush.

If you actually tried 10thou bump, then honestly, you should stop bumping around like a reloading zombie, and get engaged in this stuff. Reading this is a good place to start: http://zediker.com/books/handloading/hlmain.html
And don't follow it literally, or blindly. It's really just a step to start THINKING.
Another good one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1931220077/?tag=lrhmag19-20

 

[CatShooter]

Group shooters shoot faster than anyone they are not moving to different points of aim...

That I don't compete in BR does not mean I am not connected to accuracy shooting - don't assume facts not in evidence.

"NO" group shooter who is trying for groups under 0.10 at 100, is shooting fast, it is common for score shooters to shoot a round every 3 or 4 seconds.

...But aside from that this is about long range hunting...

Then why are we having this conversation? Every time someone talks about sizing, everyone talks about BR shooting.
NONE of this applies to long range hunting.

... and on the bigger cases where we are typically running very high pressure you don't want to allow the web to get to the point that it's causing extraction issues. Because once that happens a lot of times you cannot fix it by full length sizing. If we maintain it every single time with a full length die we will never have extraction problems.

That is not true... the dimensions for the ring can always be brought back to size if you have a proper die - and many loaders run cases at 70k+, not just large hunting cases.
I have reloaded heavily loaded cases with neck sizing dies ~45 times without problems, and others have done more than that.

That actually goes for any case that is running at the high end of pressure. And in many cases we are running these cases over pressure but they will handle it due to quality components. Neck sizing just will not work at these high pressure levels a fired case will not re chamber. There's no reason to change your methods if they are working for you but we need to be honest about current procedures and why they are being used.

I have never had problems chambering heavily loaded cases that were neck sized many times.
Maybe it is your dies that are at fault??

The best and most expensive sizing dies that Redding makes are neck sizers... and they sell like fried chicken at a church social - who the hell is buying all these neck sizing dies.
I have them for my accuracy calibres, and never get run-outs over 0.001".

If neck sizers were so bad, no one would make them any more.

 

[bigedp51]

Whidden custom dies does not make neck sizing dies my old buddy CatShooter.
And at the Whidden website they tell you they get the most concentric cases using non-bushing full length dies.

Signed your buddy
bigedp51
Who prefers his cases fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case. (AKA full length resizing)

And the best part about reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it.
Even if they are wrong.
Bazinga!

 

[CatShooter]

Whidden custom dies does not make neck sizing dies my old buddy CatShooter.
And at the Whidden website they tell you they get the most concentric cases using non-bushing full length dies.

Signed your buddy
bigedp51
Who prefers his cases fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case.

And the best part about reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it.
Even if they are wrong.
Bazinga!

And Whidden does not make a lot of other stuff...

My P-51B can beat up your P-51D

 

[Axl]

The best and most expensive sizing dies that Redding makes are neck sizers... and they sell like fried chicken at a church social - who the hell is buying all these neck sizing dies.
I have them for my accuracy calibres, and never get run-outs over 0.001".

If neck sizers were so bad, no one would make them any more.[/QUOTE]
When bullets.com was selling all their Redding dies last year on clearance, ALL the FL dies were gone in a few days, while thousands of neck dies and sets were left for many months. So if you have info from Redding showing sales data vs. fried chicken please post it.

 

[bigedp51]

And Whidden does not make a lot of other stuff...

My P-51B can beat up your P-51D

And my six .50 cal machine guns do not use neck sized ammo.

 

[Mach 1]

I don't what makes this fool an authority on reloading. I neck size and full length both depending on what gun I'm reloading for. Whatever works best for you is what you need to do. A good Frame of mind is important, do what you think helps your groups.

 

[Gater]

That I don't compete in BR does not mean I am not connected to accuracy shooting - don't assume facts not in evidence.

"NO" group shooter who is trying for groups under 0.10 at 100, is shooting fast, it is common for score shooters to shoot a round every 3 or 4 seconds.



Then why are we having this conversation? Every time someone talks about sizing, everyone talks about BR shooting.
NONE of this applies to long range hunting.



That is not true... the dimensions for the ring can always be brought back to size if you have a proper die - and many loaders run cases at 70k+, not just large hunting cases.
I have reloaded heavily loaded cases with neck sizing dies ~45 times without problems, and others have done more than that.



I have never had problems chambering heavily loaded cases that were neck sized many times.
Maybe it is your dies that are at fault??

The best and most expensive sizing dies that Redding makes are neck sizers... and they sell like fried chicken at a church social - who the hell is buying all these neck sizing dies.
I have them for my accuracy calibres, and never get run-outs over 0.001".

If neck sizers were so bad, no one would make them any more.

I shoot f-class and have scored for guys that will clean the target at 600 some of them shoot as fast as you can run the target just saying

 

[FURMAN]

I don't what makes this fool an authority on reloading. I neck size and full length both depending on what gun I'm reloading for. Whatever works best for you is what you need to do. A good Frame of mind is important, do what you think helps your groups.

WOW! I have not laughed that hard in a month and probably won't before next year. In case you did not pick up on it I am not laughing at Erik. If you don't know who that is maybe you should educate yourself. I will give you a hint he is a much better shooter than you or I will ever be. I will give you another clue he didn't get there with crap ammo or reloading practices. I am getting to the point I can not even bare reading through the posts by the keyboard ninjas on the site. Since we are on the topic do you know who Alex Wheeler is? If you want to neck size great. It still is one of the dumbest reloading practices still being performed. I would suggest the new guys not tainted by their egos listen to the guys that have proven they know what they are doing.

To the guys that keep complaining about guys always bringing up what the benchresters are doing I think you should spend a few minutes considering where almost all the tech, scopes, bullets, better powder, better brass, better barrels, better stocks, better triggers, etc... came from. I can guarantee it did not come form guys shooting a deer once a year at 100 yards. Everything we know about ballistics comes from a form of competition. If you do not believe knowing where your bullet is going when you pull the trigger is just as important, if not more important, in long range hunting than it is in competition then you probably should not be taking long range shots at game. If you are not into long range hunting I am not sure why you are here.

 

[Mach 1]

When bullets.com was selling all their Redding dies last year on clearance, ALL the FL dies were gone in a few days, while thousands of neck dies and sets were left for many months. So if you have info from Redding showing sales data vs. fried chicken please post it.[/QUOTE]


You can put 5 6.5 Creedmoor rifles along with 5 260 chambered rifles on the same table at a gun show. The Creedmoors have green mountain barrels on them and the 260s have Kriegers. The 6.5 Creedmoor rifles will sell out first. It has nothing to do with anything except most people are ignorant and follow the lead of other people.

 

[Mach 1]

WOW! I have not laughed that hard in a month and probably won't before next year. In case you did not pick up on it I am not laughing at Erik. If you don't know who that is maybe you should educate yourself. I will give you a hint he is a much better shooter than you or I will ever be. I will give you another clue he didn't get there with crap ammo or reloading practices. I am getting to the point I can not even bare reading through the posts by the keyboard ninjas on the site. Since we are on the topic do you know who Alex Wheeler is? If you want to neck size great. It still is one of the dumbest reloading practices still be performed. I would suggest the new guys not tainted by by their egos listen to the guys that have proven they know what they are doing.

To the guys that keep complaining about guys always bringing up what the benchresters are doing I think you should spend a few minutes considering where almost all the tech, scopes, bullets, better powder, better brass, better barrels, better stocks, better triggers, etc... came from. I can guarantee it did not come form guys shooting a deer once a year at 100 yards. Everything we know about ballistics comes from a form of competition. If you do not believe knowing where your bullet is going when you pull the trigger is just as important, if not more important, in long range hunting than it is in competition then you probably should not be taking long range shots at game. If you are not into long range hunting I am not sure why you are here.

I'm acquainted with who Alex is. I owned on of his rifles some time back. If I ever have a new 6bra built I will probably have him chamber it if he has time. Alex is an A1 guy that will give you the time of day and answer questions not knowing who you are or if he has worked for you.

I suppose you and this Erik, know it all reloading you tuber are buddies too. All I know from the video is he is an arrogant fool that tries to impress his views on other people. It's one thing to provide your opinion and it's another to go about it like this fool on YouTube. I care about what he thinks about as much as I care about what lebron James thinks about politics.