My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

Hard rock

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Thanks for the time and effort you put into this discussion, it is very interesting.

I normally reload 150 gr bullets to hunt deer locally and I can't say that I've been disappointed, but the deer in Nebraska are larger than the ones at home is why I chose the 180gr bullet.

I just came off a mule deer & whitetail hunt, both were shot with the exact same bullet, they reacted in totally different ways-both deer weighed a little over 200 lbs, maybe pushing 250, sorry no scales. I was shooting a 300 WSM with a 180 Nosler BT-I'm sorry my reloading records are in the shop so I can't tell you what the fps were. The mule deer buck dropped within 30 feet it was a heart shot at 225 yds. The whitetail buck was 125 yds and I shot him a little back but midline through the lungs. The buck acted like I didn't even hit it, even though there was an exit hole at least 1" diameter-no guts. The buck did not show any signs of being hit, he walked around slowing like wondering what the heck that was, he turned both sides to me and I could not see any blood. I'll back up for a minute, I sighted my rifle in at 3" high at 100 yds expecting longer shots. When I shot the whitetail he was at a steep angle downwards and slightly quartered and since the buck showed no signs of being shot I shot him again, he fell instantly, which I knew was a spine shot from his reaction. It was only when I got down to him that I discovered that I hit him solid the first time from the exit wound. No blood at all on the left side where the bullets went in and only after him laying on his right side for the time it took me to get to him was there any blood on the right side and it wasn't very much.

The mule deer buck reacted just like most other deer I have shot with the 150gr bullets and didn't go very far at all. The whitetail buck was just the opposite, no reaction, no bleeding from a fatal wound. Where I live the hair on deer is about 3/8" long, on these bucks the hair was almost 3" long. From past bow shots in Nebraska with a Bear Broadhead, the hair seems to cover the exit wounds and does not leave a blood trail, if it does you'd have to get on your hands and knees to look for a drop here and a drop there.

Again this is an interesting read and from my experience, I think there's something to be said about both shock values, but a good pass through with a proper shot & bullet will lead you to your trophy. I think ALL animals react differently, some collapse when shot and I've shot some as in this case that defies what happened.

A good example of the pencil theory is when I first reloaded I used a 7mm 150gr Sierra Match bullet, it worked great until one shot, that shot went in-between two ribs and exited between two ribs, leaving NO blood trail, except I did find 3 small drops on a single leaf. I was lucky a rainstorm just came through and I was able to track the buck by his hoof prints in the mud, but that lesson told me I had been using the wrong bullet so I switched to the Nosler BT.

Another example that isn't on deer. A lady called me and said she had a strange dog at her house that she suspected to be a rabid female dog with 4 puppies that weighed about 7lbs, I'm guessing here. When I got out of my vehicle the momma dog attempted to attack me and I shot her with a Mini-14, using Remington 55gr SP. Since the momma dog was suspected of having rabies the pups had to be put down too. I shot each one with the same bullet and there was not an exit on any of them, which blew my mind, thinking how is that possible, of course if I didn't suspect rabies I would have opened them up to see what happened. I shot the pups from about 10', knocking the pups down instantly as it did their momma. This explains the shock values you were talking about and why they went down so quickly. The entire energy of that bullet was dumped into their bodies. The mom was shot through the chest and the pups through the ribs-heart/lung shots.

Again thank you, this is an excellent read and I've enjoyed everyone that has commented.
There is a area high above the lungs and low of spine called no man’s land even if you clip a lung the deer can still stay on his feet until the lungs collapse and the end of a bloodless trail the lungs fill up with blood and the blood trail starts usually thats the end of the trail being that it’s a high center shot the blood if any at all will come out the exit hole from your post that is my analogy
 

Muddyboots

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Great reads, great input for perspectives, definitely added better understanding of bullet performance to my personal bullet "database" and probably will not likely change my bullet selection. 🔥

HUNTING Bullet construction whether cup and core, mono's, terminal performance are all part of my selection process.

Accuracy consistency, how easy to tune and how wide is the "tune" node is something I really like in a bullet. This provides to me a velocity options for my purposes. I include this in my bullet performance since bullet stability is big part of terminal performance.
I just shot a decent size buck double lunged at 240 yds. He traveled over 210 yds measured with rangefinder. Lungs were just jellied goop. The impact velocity was 2776 and ft-lbs 2669 at 250 yards. He never bronco kicked nor showed any hit reaction. Just took off full throttle. He was dead on feet, not much more you can ask from a bullet. Some animals defy your understanding on how they should react to a "perfect kill shot". My son killed nice size buck last week at about 75 yards, same bullet manufacturer and buck was DRT with double lung hit. Same bullet on doe couple days ago double lung hit again at about 75 yards, she went 75 yards measured with rangefinder. I use rangefinder to document how far they go just for my own information for future hits that may help me recover the animal faster.

All humanely killed with different reactions with exactly same hit on them. Their lungs all had same result of being jellied but these three animals reacted differently. Bullet performed consistently on all three deer but each died quickly slightly different.

This bullet is extremely accurate in two different rifles in different cartridges. Deer died humanely, terminal performance of bullet exactly the same but each deer had different reactions. I really don't care how far they go from DRT to 200 yards IF the bullet performance is consistent for terminal performance AND accuracy.

You can't apply laboratory results expectations to how a bullet should perform each and every time on an animal. These animals live under conditions we wouldn't last at all. Heck, the buck I killed yesterday had 3 broken ribs, 1 that was snapped in half encapsulated in heavy cartilage. He also had a broken shoulder and broken rear leg all healed up but did not have full locomotion. It strongly looked like he was hit by a vehicle in the past but yet somehow survived and you could say prospered. He was chasing does so the will to live is stronger than we can fully comprehend. But yet he really didn't show how badly he was broken up when he came out of cover and when he ran it was still pretty normal and fast.

Terminal performance on the animal for me is only did the bullet physically do what is expected at acceptable impact velocity. The results on the animal is so subjective and dependent upon species, animal itself, size and age, distance, impact ballistics, shot angle, animal behavior, ad nauseam on the number of variables that affect each and every shot. Its really difficult to say with extreme high degree of confidence this is what a bullet will do "most" of the time.

Terminal performance I depend upon is "was the animal killed humanely" if I placed the bullet in expected kill zone.

I still shoot cup and core for certain hunting applications but have switched over to Hammers as primary big game bullet until they prove to me otherwise. Their terminal performance has provided fast humane kills and exceptional tunability for accuracy and velocity.

I still think Ram is best truck.....
 

Petey308

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Aug 23, 2018
Messages
311
Location
Missouri
Great reads, great input for perspectives, definitely added better understanding of bullet performance to my personal bullet "database" and probably will not likely change my bullet selection. 🔥

HUNTING Bullet construction whether cup and core, mono's, terminal performance are all part of my selection process.

Accuracy consistency, how easy to tune and how wide is the "tune" node is something I really like in a bullet. This provides to me a velocity options for my purposes. I include this in my bullet performance since bullet stability is big part of terminal performance.
I just shot a decent size buck double lunged at 240 yds. He traveled over 210 yds measured with rangefinder. Lungs were just jellied goop. The impact velocity was 2776 and ft-lbs 2669 at 250 yards. He never bronco kicked nor showed any hit reaction. Just took off full throttle. He was dead on feet, not much more you can ask from a bullet. Some animals defy your understanding on how they should react to a "perfect kill shot". My son killed nice size buck last week at about 75 yards, same bullet manufacturer and buck was DRT with double lung hit. Same bullet on doe couple days ago double lung hit again at about 75 yards, she went 75 yards measured with rangefinder. I use rangefinder to document how far they go just for my own information for future hits that may help me recover the animal faster.

All humanely killed with different reactions with exactly same hit on them. Their lungs all had same result of being jellied but these three animals reacted differently. Bullet performed consistently on all three deer but each died quickly slightly different.

This bullet is extremely accurate in two different rifles in different cartridges. Deer died humanely, terminal performance of bullet exactly the same but each deer had different reactions. I really don't care how far they go from DRT to 200 yards IF the bullet performance is consistent for terminal performance AND accuracy.

You can't apply laboratory results expectations to how a bullet should perform each and every time on an animal. These animals live under conditions we wouldn't last at all. Heck, the buck I killed yesterday had 3 broken ribs, 1 that was snapped in half encapsulated in heavy cartilage. He also had a broken shoulder and broken rear leg all healed up but did not have full locomotion. It strongly looked like he was hit by a vehicle in the past but yet somehow survived and you could say prospered. He was chasing does so the will to live is stronger than we can fully comprehend. But yet he really didn't show how badly he was broken up when he came out of cover and when he ran it was still pretty normal and fast.

Terminal performance on the animal for me is only did the bullet physically do what is expected at acceptable impact velocity. The results on the animal is so subjective and dependent upon species, animal itself, size and age, distance, impact ballistics, shot angle, animal behavior, ad nauseam on the number of variables that affect each and every shot. Its really difficult to say with extreme high degree of confidence this is what a bullet will do "most" of the time.

Terminal performance I depend upon is "was the animal killed humanely" if I placed the bullet in expected kill zone.

I still shoot cup and core for certain hunting applications but have switched over to Hammers as primary big game bullet until they prove to me otherwise. Their terminal performance has provided fast humane kills and exceptional tunability for accuracy and velocity.

I still think Ram is best truck.....
Yep. Keep doing and using what works for you. I’m merely sharing my experiences and thoughts here if it can be helpful.
 

Muddyboots

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They are helpful and I appreciated your insights. Like you, just sharing my experiences and thoughts on bullet terminal performance based upon my experiences.
 

IHFarmer07

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Dec 29, 2013
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What's your secrete for getting them to shoot good? None of my rifles liked them so well. Just tried the 70's in a 22 Creed and groups were 1 - 1.5 MOA.
Sorry for the late answer, I didn’t get a notification on this.
I was running the first gens there. Lol, idk about any secret but they shoot tight in my prc 26” LT Palma Krieger 4 groove 1-7 twist .130 freebore in a short action, cbto is 2.239” which put them at .025” off the lands, 55.6 grains RL23 clocking at 3267.
Are you shooting the first gens or second? Maybe a different powder or primer combo is needed, I know that’s hard to do now though.

Was supposed to get second gens but they sent the the first gens instead🙄. I’d like to try the DBll’s but idk, I shot a few deer this year with the first gens and while I was excited and happy with last year’s harvests, this year I payed more attention to external damage/blood loss/trail and I probably won’t be using the first gens anymore hunting.
I shot two does at 76 and 140 yards through the shoulders on purpose and while the deer dropped (one actually landed hoofs up, didn’t move lol) the damage inside was great! The damage/hole size externally though was lacking. Hardly any blood loss eternally, didn’t even have to wash the bed of the SxS. Had shot a buck right behind the shoulder, little low but at 176 yards and it ran 20 yards and fell. Same deal, no real big blood loss for tracking.

Don’t get me wrong, love the idea of monos but idk if their for me. Most use monos for laws and or because they have an expensive hunt and can only harvest one animal so meat savings are a must. Me on the other hand, I’m into the management of deer to help save our crops. So with that said, if it gets shot through the shoulders, shoulders go by by and I’ll just shoot another deer. So, what’s the point of shooting monos for me. I’ll be trying the 156 eol and 150 ablr’s for a bit.
I’ll keep an eye out on the copper bullets as I love the thought of them and the consistency of them, with reloading consistency is key!!
Good luck
 

Northkill

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Sorry for the late answer, I didn’t get a notification on this.
I was running the first gens there. Lol, idk about any secret but they shoot tight in my prc 26” LT Palma Krieger 4 groove 1-7 twist .130 freebore in a short action, cbto is 2.239” which put them at .025” off the lands, 55.6 grains RL23 clocking at 3267.
Are you shooting the first gens or second? Maybe a different powder or primer combo is needed, I know that’s hard to do now though.

Was supposed to get second gens but they sent the the first gens instead🙄. I’d like to try the DBll’s but idk, I shot a few deer this year with the first gens and while I was excited and happy with last year’s harvests, this year I payed more attention to external damage/blood loss/trail and I probably won’t be using the first gens anymore hunting.
I shot two does at 76 and 140 yards through the shoulders on purpose and while the deer dropped (one actually landed hoofs up, didn’t move lol) the damage inside was great! The damage/hole size externally though was lacking. Hardly any blood loss eternally, didn’t even have to wash the bed of the SxS. Had shot a buck right behind the shoulder, little low but at 176 yards and it ran 20 yards and fell. Same deal, no real big blood loss for tracking.

Don’t get me wrong, love the idea of monos but idk if their for me. Most use monos for laws and or because they have an expensive hunt and can only harvest one animal so meat savings are a must. Me on the other hand, I’m into the management of deer to help save our crops. So with that said, if it gets shot through the shoulders, shoulders go by by and I’ll just shoot another deer. So, what’s the point of shooting monos for me. I’ll be trying the 156 eol and 150 ablr’s for a bit.
I’ll keep an eye out on the copper bullets as I love the thought of them and the consistency of them, with reloading consistency is key!!
Good luck
I was running the BD2's. They are a different animal for sure than the 1st gen. Might be worth your while to try. They were devastating in my 7 Allen Mag this year. Did you see that post?
 

IHFarmer07

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I was running the BD2's. They are a different animal for sure than the 1st gen. Might be worth your while to try. They were devastating in my 7 Allen Mag this year. Did you see that post?
Lol yeah I seen that post, I posted right after that post with pictures!!
 

Northkill

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Sure enough you did. I'm way too forgetful for 41 yrs old. Information overload I'll call it. 🤷‍♂️😖
 

doubledoc

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As a physician/ scientist (ie, doubledoc), I congratulate your effort here. Certain physiological processes were oversimplified, but your core message re the physiology of death and dying was accurate. I won't comment pro-con regarding products I haven't used or studdied, but MUCH of a bullet's behavior depends on WHAT it initially hits. Berger's description of their expansion characteristics fails to account for this factor. Encountering the bony shoulder structures and a between the rib lung shot will produce dramatically different expansion characterists, which they seem to ignore in ads describing bullet behavior. And the same for essentially ALL projectiles.
Again, well done, and much success in understanding a complex process, like "how bullets actually kill".
Sincerely, Bill
 

FEENIX

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As a physician/ scientist (ie, doubledoc), I congratulate your effort here. Certain physiological processes were oversimplified, but your core message re the physiology of death and dying was accurate. I won't comment pro-con regarding products I haven't used or studdied, but MUCH of a bullet's behavior depends on WHAT it initially hits. Berger's description of their expansion characteristics fails to account for this factor. Encountering the bony shoulder structures and a between the rib lung shot will produce dramatically different expansion characterists, which they seem to ignore in ads describing bullet behavior. And the same for essentially ALL projectiles.
Again, well done, and much success in understanding a complex process, like "how bullets actually kill".
Sincerely, Bill
Bill,

I am no doubledoc, just an average hunter, but I have not seen any ads (perhaps I missed it) that Berger is ignoring their bullets' behavior. Berger hunting bullets kills through massive energy dump (fragmentation) on impact. Berger bullets are not designed to behave like the traditional cup and core bullets, i.e., Corelokts, Partitions, etc.



Ed
 

Petey308

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Aug 23, 2018
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Missouri
Got a few more bullets cross-sectioned, of the homogeneous/monolithic/solid variety. The differences with all these are very interesting. The Bulldozer 2 is the only one with a cavity made in a star pattern. I'm sure that helps a bit with forming petals, but the cavity isn't very deep. The Cayuga definitely has the shallowest cavity, and it's not very wide at all. That makes me feel like it would be the least reliable and definitely would need a good deal of impact velocity for best results. The Hammer has the deepest cavity, but it's still very small in diameter. Thanks for sending me these @FEENIX!

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