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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
My long winded thoughts on annealing
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<blockquote data-quote="Petey308" data-source="post: 2350386" data-attributes="member: 106845"><p>Salt Bath Annealing will definitely add back some consistency to your cases, and could very well be better than not annealing at all. The only thing with it is it doesn't produce a complete anneal on the entire neck and shoulder. For some folks' needs, that may be just fine. Some might be after just enough improvement to get their brass behaving just a bit better than if they did nothing at all. My argument (if you can even call it that) isn't that it's a waste of time or absolutely doesn't work. My only argument with it is that it's not producing the best result and not a full and proper anneal. It also leaves a bit of room for error as you still have to get the timing right on how long you hold the case in the molten salt and how far. </p><p></p><p>INDUCTION current creates heat as a reaction in the metal. A torch heats brass via CONDUCTION. Salt bath does as well, but energy and heat is lost as the brass also cools the molten salt as it contacts it, to a degree (no pun intended).</p><p></p><p>We flash anneal cartridge brass with a source that heats the brass much higher than 750°. That's where the time comes in. You can also vary the current with induction to vary results as well. Commonly, 750° Tempalaq is used to ensure you reach minimum temp, but so you also do not exceed it in areas of the brass you do not want annealed.</p><p></p><p>From my research, I've concluded that salt bath will only partially anneal. It only achieves the recovery process; which will give a slight reduction in hardness and essentially stress relieves the brass. The final phase of annealing, grain growth, is where you actually see a lot of reduction in the actual hardness of the brass. Why it only achieves recovery, I'm not fully certain, but either way, you don't get a full and proper anneal on just the areas that should be annealed. This has also been tested and researched by the Findlay's as well, but I'm fully aware people tend to reject their findings because it's from a company selling an induction annealer. </p><p></p><p>So yes, to reiterate, I'm fully aware of the somewhat controversial matter regarding salt bath annealing, and if it really works or not. I won't argue that it does provide a degree of annealing and/or stress relief, but I really don't believe it produces a true baseline hardness level to the brass- at least not without over-annealing areas you do not want annealed, because it would require more time in the molten salt and the conduction would travel down the case body and anneal the body as well. </p><p></p><p>Torch annealing, by use of a flame, is not affected by the starting temperature of the brass before the flame touches it and that starting temp of the brass also does not affect the temp of the flame. Same with induction. </p><p></p><p>While I do agree that salt bath annealing allows for about the most consistent heat source, since you can heat the salt to a specific temp, but once you introduce something of another temp into a liquid, it will affect the temp of the liquid it contacts- acting as a heat sink. I feel this is one reason the salt bath annealing doesn't fully anneal like flash annealing with a torch or induction current. I'm by no means an expert though, and this would simply be a theory of mine until proven false or confirmed. </p><p></p><p>And I don't just mean the brass cools the entire pot of salt. I mean it will cool the salt that comes into immediate contact with it, and subsequent salt after that. It's like reverse conduction and convection, at the same time. I understand the pot will work to try to reheat and regulate the temp of the salt, but in the seconds you have the brass in there, they're literally fighting each other. The salt does win, and does apply a degree of annealing, but just not in the same way induction or a torch does, since neither of those methods are affected by the brass start temp. </p><p></p><p>An analogy would be having a pot of boiling water and then dropping an egg into it. It'll slow, or stop, the boiling until it gets back to temp. Dipping a single piece of brass for a few seconds is similar to this, but obviously not exactly the same. It's just another example of the same principle. The physics don't lie. If you could keep the heat from conducting through the rest of the case, it might work properly, but you can't. </p><p></p><p>Ultimately, what your end goal and desire is is what should determine the path you choose. I know darn well not everyone needs what the best induction annealer will give them. There are plenty of reloaders that would never benefit from annealing at all. Some do it because they are necking up brass to make a different cartridge and want to reduce the amount of split necks they get in the process. Some do it to prolong the life if their brass. Some do it to get the best consistency in sizing and neck tension they can get. I'm not trying to get into a debate in which method is best, which machine is best, or anything like that. I'm really not. I was simply sharing my thoughts and experience on the subject matter. This is just to elaborate further regarding Salt Bath Annealing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Petey308, post: 2350386, member: 106845"] Salt Bath Annealing will definitely add back some consistency to your cases, and could very well be better than not annealing at all. The only thing with it is it doesn’t produce a complete anneal on the entire neck and shoulder. For some folks’ needs, that may be just fine. Some might be after just enough improvement to get their brass behaving just a bit better than if they did nothing at all. My argument (if you can even call it that) isn’t that it’s a waste of time or absolutely doesn’t work. My only argument with it is that it’s not producing the best result and not a full and proper anneal. It also leaves a bit of room for error as you still have to get the timing right on how long you hold the case in the molten salt and how far. INDUCTION current creates heat as a reaction in the metal. A torch heats brass via CONDUCTION. Salt bath does as well, but energy and heat is lost as the brass also cools the molten salt as it contacts it, to a degree (no pun intended). We flash anneal cartridge brass with a source that heats the brass much higher than 750°. That's where the time comes in. You can also vary the current with induction to vary results as well. Commonly, 750° Tempalaq is used to ensure you reach minimum temp, but so you also do not exceed it in areas of the brass you do not want annealed. From my research, I've concluded that salt bath will only partially anneal. It only achieves the recovery process; which will give a slight reduction in hardness and essentially stress relieves the brass. The final phase of annealing, grain growth, is where you actually see a lot of reduction in the actual hardness of the brass. Why it only achieves recovery, I'm not fully certain, but either way, you don't get a full and proper anneal on just the areas that should be annealed. This has also been tested and researched by the Findlay's as well, but I'm fully aware people tend to reject their findings because it's from a company selling an induction annealer. So yes, to reiterate, I'm fully aware of the somewhat controversial matter regarding salt bath annealing, and if it really works or not. I won't argue that it does provide a degree of annealing and/or stress relief, but I really don't believe it produces a true baseline hardness level to the brass- at least not without over-annealing areas you do not want annealed, because it would require more time in the molten salt and the conduction would travel down the case body and anneal the body as well. Torch annealing, by use of a flame, is not affected by the starting temperature of the brass before the flame touches it and that starting temp of the brass also does not affect the temp of the flame. Same with induction. While I do agree that salt bath annealing allows for about the most consistent heat source, since you can heat the salt to a specific temp, but once you introduce something of another temp into a liquid, it will affect the temp of the liquid it contacts- acting as a heat sink. I feel this is one reason the salt bath annealing doesn't fully anneal like flash annealing with a torch or induction current. I'm by no means an expert though, and this would simply be a theory of mine until proven false or confirmed. And I don't just mean the brass cools the entire pot of salt. I mean it will cool the salt that comes into immediate contact with it, and subsequent salt after that. It's like reverse conduction and convection, at the same time. I understand the pot will work to try to reheat and regulate the temp of the salt, but in the seconds you have the brass in there, they're literally fighting each other. The salt does win, and does apply a degree of annealing, but just not in the same way induction or a torch does, since neither of those methods are affected by the brass start temp. An analogy would be having a pot of boiling water and then dropping an egg into it. It'll slow, or stop, the boiling until it gets back to temp. Dipping a single piece of brass for a few seconds is similar to this, but obviously not exactly the same. It's just another example of the same principle. The physics don't lie. If you could keep the heat from conducting through the rest of the case, it might work properly, but you can't. Ultimately, what your end goal and desire is is what should determine the path you choose. I know darn well not everyone needs what the best induction annealer will give them. There are plenty of reloaders that would never benefit from annealing at all. Some do it because they are necking up brass to make a different cartridge and want to reduce the amount of split necks they get in the process. Some do it to prolong the life if their brass. Some do it to get the best consistency in sizing and neck tension they can get. I'm not trying to get into a debate in which method is best, which machine is best, or anything like that. I'm really not. I was simply sharing my thoughts and experience on the subject matter. This is just to elaborate further regarding Salt Bath Annealing. [/QUOTE]
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My long winded thoughts on annealing
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