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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Mirage - how much point of impact shift?
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<blockquote data-quote="Warren Jensen" data-source="post: 20865" data-attributes="member: 21"><p>Len,</p><p></p><p>I think Dave is on to something. It would be my opinion that the mirage affects the image in two ways and any experiment should address each way.</p><p></p><p>First, as you have mentioned, there is a POA to POI offset. This is where the image is being offset up,down, left, or right.</p><p></p><p>Second, there is the image distortion itself, where the clarity of the image outline is being reduced and is much harder to distinguish from the background. This makes exact POA placement less precise.</p><p></p><p>Any experiment should try to quantify the image offset and the image distortion, separately, in my opinion.</p><p></p><p>Darryl,</p><p></p><p>Believe me I understand the complexities of longrange shooting. I also believe that these can be measured and corrections applied. For example, we just spent a time at Yuma Proving Grounds getting exact trajectory data, meter by meter, on quite a number of cartridges and bullets. This is exact flight data not mathematical models. We can apply correcting values for the flight variables, such as wind and it's various vectors, temperature, pressure, etc. The result is precise trajectory prediction. The difficulty is in the measurement and calculation. Many times the conditions will change, even if you have the measurements correct, before you can calculate the correction. What you need is immediate correction values. Also, you need real time imputs to make those corrections. We are working on this and will have our first generation of our Advanced Ballistic Computer available in about 60 days. Our goal is to work towards a product that does real time measurement and correction display.</p><p></p><p>I am intimately familiar with the long range spotter round technique, having used it extensively 30 years ago. The equipment you use today is much more sophisticated than we had then. What my particular challenge is now is to put the first, and perhaps the only, round on target at long range. We are closer to solving this than you might think. There are many times when spotting is not useful or is counterproductive, night being a prime example. </p><p></p><p>I am not trying to be argumentative or combative but we are working on similar projects coming from two entirely different perspectives. As an example, range estimation in my arena has to be totally passive. No laser rangefinders here. Anybody with a radar/laser detector can find you. We have a passive range determination system in the works, and it is as accurate as lasers. Also, when shooting past 2000 yds. you have to have continuous wind vectors from muzzle to target, and again, we have a system in development. This is not Star Wars stuff, but available technology. If you solve the range, the winds, the optics, the temperature changes with ammo and air, the pressure, the humidity, spin drift and coriolis effect, with a cartridge that has a stable and accurate projectile you can put that first shot on target. You reduce and then eliminate the errors a piece at a time and eventually you will get there.</p><p></p><p>Again, this is in no way an attempt to minimize your skill and expertise, which I have the greatest respect for. I am learning from you and your fellow competitors and hunters constantly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Warren Jensen, post: 20865, member: 21"] Len, I think Dave is on to something. It would be my opinion that the mirage affects the image in two ways and any experiment should address each way. First, as you have mentioned, there is a POA to POI offset. This is where the image is being offset up,down, left, or right. Second, there is the image distortion itself, where the clarity of the image outline is being reduced and is much harder to distinguish from the background. This makes exact POA placement less precise. Any experiment should try to quantify the image offset and the image distortion, separately, in my opinion. Darryl, Believe me I understand the complexities of longrange shooting. I also believe that these can be measured and corrections applied. For example, we just spent a time at Yuma Proving Grounds getting exact trajectory data, meter by meter, on quite a number of cartridges and bullets. This is exact flight data not mathematical models. We can apply correcting values for the flight variables, such as wind and it's various vectors, temperature, pressure, etc. The result is precise trajectory prediction. The difficulty is in the measurement and calculation. Many times the conditions will change, even if you have the measurements correct, before you can calculate the correction. What you need is immediate correction values. Also, you need real time imputs to make those corrections. We are working on this and will have our first generation of our Advanced Ballistic Computer available in about 60 days. Our goal is to work towards a product that does real time measurement and correction display. I am intimately familiar with the long range spotter round technique, having used it extensively 30 years ago. The equipment you use today is much more sophisticated than we had then. What my particular challenge is now is to put the first, and perhaps the only, round on target at long range. We are closer to solving this than you might think. There are many times when spotting is not useful or is counterproductive, night being a prime example. I am not trying to be argumentative or combative but we are working on similar projects coming from two entirely different perspectives. As an example, range estimation in my arena has to be totally passive. No laser rangefinders here. Anybody with a radar/laser detector can find you. We have a passive range determination system in the works, and it is as accurate as lasers. Also, when shooting past 2000 yds. you have to have continuous wind vectors from muzzle to target, and again, we have a system in development. This is not Star Wars stuff, but available technology. If you solve the range, the winds, the optics, the temperature changes with ammo and air, the pressure, the humidity, spin drift and coriolis effect, with a cartridge that has a stable and accurate projectile you can put that first shot on target. You reduce and then eliminate the errors a piece at a time and eventually you will get there. Again, this is in no way an attempt to minimize your skill and expertise, which I have the greatest respect for. I am learning from you and your fellow competitors and hunters constantly. [/QUOTE]
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