JakeC
Well-Known Member
Hi all. Long time reader, first time poster. Its long and yet another "which cartridge" post. Please forgive me. This is by far the best forum I've found on shooting in general and the only place I'd ask for advice. I've read everything I can on the topic before asking. A lot of what's out there on this little category is based on shorter or lighter barrels and is ten or more years old, leaving out the majority of bullet/powder combos I'm interested in. I've done all the research I can over the last couple years and I keep running into the same priorities and questions so it's time to bug the good graces of people who know more. So, 7mm-08 Ackley Improved or .284 Winchester ?
The project is a short action savage 10, detachable centerfeed mag. Max COAL is 2.990 or so. Currently a 20" 6.5 creed. It's got all the savage barrel quirks and all of the creedmoor quirks and I'm bored with it. Accurate but exhausting. I've circled in on the medium 7s shooting 154-168 grain bullets out of a 22-26 inch barrel as the second in the set. Why? A combination of efficiency, current parts, and curiosity. Why not a straight 7-08? Because I want more, and I want more of a project. I want to see what you can do with 175g partitions/ELDs on the experimental end. On the practical side, the 155g federal TA, the accubond family and the ELD family is what I want to use on game. Another 100-150 fps isn't a ton but it moves this class of slugs from the "iffy to decent" range to the "functional to really good" range. Or at least that's the thesis of the project.
I've thought about a 260AI but I think I want more mass and longer barrel life. I want to be able to experiment with several bullets and not have a shiny bare tube by the time I'm done. I don't want a SAW, a 7x57, 7x57AI, a SAUM, or a WSM. I looked that all over very carefully. They sound great but for my purposes they each bring new negatives and fewer positives. Frankly if I was going to saddle up another level in power there are always 300 wsms and 7mags being almost given away. I could get two, sell the less accurate one, and be ahead financially with no wait. I'll almost certainly do one of those for my next one, especially because those two are about the only thing on the shelf right now.
That's what I know and what my rationale is. Now I'll list the factors I'm weighing between the two, in no order of importance or expense. Feel free to call BS on or verify. Basically what it amounts to right now is .284 wins on ease of entry but 7mm-08AI wins on sustainability. I'm not worried about loss of powder space in either one unless someone can say "yeah, it's literally only 50 fps max gain over a 7mm-08." After all, nobody complains about the 28 Nosler being neutered because it's stuffed. I've heard from knowledgeable members on here that savage prefits can have spotty chamber quality. I think I'm willing to risk it based on a clear impression that competition has really benefited the consumer of late. Lastly, I want to use temp stable powder. Happy to hear otherwise on any of my evaluations.
7mm-08 AI:
Positives: Opportunity for 2 accurate load development trees (virgin vs formed), lots of cheap brass and lots of premium brass available, OTC loads when hoarding and hunting seasons don't coincide, potentially outstanding brass life, one magazine and one go gauge if I get a .243 or 308 barrel, very likeable ballistics, great barrel life, moderate recoil and blast, and essentially no case trimming (I hate case trimming, like very passionate hate.)
Negatives: Fireforming; special-order expensive dies; no S-type dies at all; mixed reports on accuracy vs. brass life; only 2 savage prefit providers (Shaw and Preferred); no real data (even though it sounds like most medium 7mm data is off); sounds like it has to be run at or above max for accuracy. Most importantly there just hasn't been that much info I can find about success with 160-168 grain pills in longer barrels.
284 Win.
Positives: Available dies of all types; more data (but weak data); even better ballistics (theoretically); no fireforming; potentially more authority on big game; sounds like more potential for extreme accuracy across the case fill spectrum; I can yank the barrel and toss it onto a long action when one crosses my path. Lastly and very importantly, most prefit makers will chamber the non-match .284 Win giving me a lot more options on quality, price, lead times, rifling, contours, lapping, even carbon wrapping.
Negatives: Having ogive in the case neck looks very stupid; magazine becomes dedicated after modification; headspace gauges aren't interchangeable with other chamberings I want; Only Petersen makes brass right now, and that one source might not last (Norma gave up lickety split); alleged weak primer pockets at full pressure; if Peterson goes away I'll need to screw around with donuts from 6.5x284 brass or move the barrel to a long action.
Anyway, if folks are sick of this type of discussion I understand. If not I'm happy to hear any thoughts at all. I've only been able to have conversations that get stuck on 6mm/6.5mm and why we should all hunt bison with grendels. I've said a lot to show I've put the time in, not to be belligerent. Thanks for the help,
Jake
The project is a short action savage 10, detachable centerfeed mag. Max COAL is 2.990 or so. Currently a 20" 6.5 creed. It's got all the savage barrel quirks and all of the creedmoor quirks and I'm bored with it. Accurate but exhausting. I've circled in on the medium 7s shooting 154-168 grain bullets out of a 22-26 inch barrel as the second in the set. Why? A combination of efficiency, current parts, and curiosity. Why not a straight 7-08? Because I want more, and I want more of a project. I want to see what you can do with 175g partitions/ELDs on the experimental end. On the practical side, the 155g federal TA, the accubond family and the ELD family is what I want to use on game. Another 100-150 fps isn't a ton but it moves this class of slugs from the "iffy to decent" range to the "functional to really good" range. Or at least that's the thesis of the project.
I've thought about a 260AI but I think I want more mass and longer barrel life. I want to be able to experiment with several bullets and not have a shiny bare tube by the time I'm done. I don't want a SAW, a 7x57, 7x57AI, a SAUM, or a WSM. I looked that all over very carefully. They sound great but for my purposes they each bring new negatives and fewer positives. Frankly if I was going to saddle up another level in power there are always 300 wsms and 7mags being almost given away. I could get two, sell the less accurate one, and be ahead financially with no wait. I'll almost certainly do one of those for my next one, especially because those two are about the only thing on the shelf right now.
That's what I know and what my rationale is. Now I'll list the factors I'm weighing between the two, in no order of importance or expense. Feel free to call BS on or verify. Basically what it amounts to right now is .284 wins on ease of entry but 7mm-08AI wins on sustainability. I'm not worried about loss of powder space in either one unless someone can say "yeah, it's literally only 50 fps max gain over a 7mm-08." After all, nobody complains about the 28 Nosler being neutered because it's stuffed. I've heard from knowledgeable members on here that savage prefits can have spotty chamber quality. I think I'm willing to risk it based on a clear impression that competition has really benefited the consumer of late. Lastly, I want to use temp stable powder. Happy to hear otherwise on any of my evaluations.
7mm-08 AI:
Positives: Opportunity for 2 accurate load development trees (virgin vs formed), lots of cheap brass and lots of premium brass available, OTC loads when hoarding and hunting seasons don't coincide, potentially outstanding brass life, one magazine and one go gauge if I get a .243 or 308 barrel, very likeable ballistics, great barrel life, moderate recoil and blast, and essentially no case trimming (I hate case trimming, like very passionate hate.)
Negatives: Fireforming; special-order expensive dies; no S-type dies at all; mixed reports on accuracy vs. brass life; only 2 savage prefit providers (Shaw and Preferred); no real data (even though it sounds like most medium 7mm data is off); sounds like it has to be run at or above max for accuracy. Most importantly there just hasn't been that much info I can find about success with 160-168 grain pills in longer barrels.
284 Win.
Positives: Available dies of all types; more data (but weak data); even better ballistics (theoretically); no fireforming; potentially more authority on big game; sounds like more potential for extreme accuracy across the case fill spectrum; I can yank the barrel and toss it onto a long action when one crosses my path. Lastly and very importantly, most prefit makers will chamber the non-match .284 Win giving me a lot more options on quality, price, lead times, rifling, contours, lapping, even carbon wrapping.
Negatives: Having ogive in the case neck looks very stupid; magazine becomes dedicated after modification; headspace gauges aren't interchangeable with other chamberings I want; Only Petersen makes brass right now, and that one source might not last (Norma gave up lickety split); alleged weak primer pockets at full pressure; if Peterson goes away I'll need to screw around with donuts from 6.5x284 brass or move the barrel to a long action.
Anyway, if folks are sick of this type of discussion I understand. If not I'm happy to hear any thoughts at all. I've only been able to have conversations that get stuck on 6mm/6.5mm and why we should all hunt bison with grendels. I've said a lot to show I've put the time in, not to be belligerent. Thanks for the help,
Jake
