Marketing Hype in Ballistics - Hornady 4DOF Solver

[DocUSMCRetired]

Marketing Hype in Ballistics - The Hornady 4DOF Solver

This is the start of the Truth In Performance campaign. Applied Ballistics' mission is to be the complete and unbiased source of external ballistics information for long range shooters. Gaining the knowledge required to master long range shooting is very difficult, even when you have good information. Unfortunately the hyper-marketing/advertising culture we live in is constantly pushing out misleading or outright false information to promote products.

In addition to exploring the unknown areas of ballistics and publishing original information, it's also part of our mission at Applied Ballistics to address the many questions which arise from the overwhelming marketing hype.

This is a technical article that explains some of the marketing hype related to the Hornady 4 DOF ballistic solver. We go in to Aerodynamic Jump and Spin Drift. If you are interested in learning the truth about 6DOF, 3DOF, MPM, and the Aerodynamic Jump Calculation Hornady is claiming, this article will help separate the fact from fiction.

Some Lead and some Follow. AB has been modeling spin drift, Aerodynamic Jump, Coriolis, WEZ and other advanced calculations for a long time. We literally wrote the book on it, and have been providing these calculations in our solver for years. In the end, its results that matter, so trust the professionals that the professionals go to.

Article: http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Truth In Performance/Hornady4DOF.pdf

 

[Barrelnut]

Doc, while we have your ear. Is there a solution for the post below? Seems that the last OS update and/or AB mobile update caused some major inconsistencies in trajectory solutions. I use Shooter and have been wanting to go to AB but this thread is scaring me off. Thanks.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...ving-issues-applied-ballistics-mobile-174664/

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Doc, while we have your ear. Is there a solution for the post below? Seems that the last OS update and/or AB mobile update caused some major inconsistencies in trajectory solutions. I use Shooter and have been wanting to go to AB but this thread is scaring me off. Thanks.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...ving-issues-applied-ballistics-mobile-174664/

I responded.

 

[Bullseye]

From Hornady: http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/faqs/4DOF-Response.pdf

Hornady Response to Applied Ballistics
Recently the Hornady 4DOF™ Trajectory calculator has been labelled by Applied Ballistics LLC. (AB) as being nothing more than marketing hype, lacking data for predictions and being inaccurately described in its capabilities. Normally we would not respond to internet accusations such as this but because of the standing of AB in the community and possible misunderstanding of what we are doing we feel a response is necessary.
We did not set out to disparage anything that AB or anyone else has done in this industry. They have certainly advanced the understanding and predictive abilities of projectile trajectories in the last 5 years. Just as AB has made strides to advance the science, we too are offering something we feel is another significant step forward in the science and predictive capabilities for small arms ballistics. We are simply trying to advance the science just as everyone else has for decades.
We understand that some of the claims and concepts we are discussing may be foreign, as a 4DOF program has not been previously available to the general shooting public. This technology and predictive methods have been available to the military and defense industry for nearly 40 years. It is proven, validated and mature technology. The 4DOF calculator uses Doppler Radar data to produce high resolution drag coefficient curves for projectiles. Under the right conditions our radar is capable of tracking projectiles above 7mm to well in excess of 2,000 yards. Each projectile has its own unique drag curve. The higher the resolution and fidelity of the drag curve, the better the solution. This is nothing new, however, the use of radar in this industry to produce this drag data is relatively new. Bottom line, the more accurate the measurement of the actual drag of a specific projectile, the more accurate the predicted trajectory.
What is novel about Hornady 4DOF™ is the use of the 4th degree of freedom. This allows for the computation of projectile angle of attack and the associated lift forces on the projectile. This is critical for the accurate calculation of aerodynamic jump, spin drift and to a lesser degree very long range trajectories.
To do this you need to know the mass, inertial and aerodynamic properties of the projectile; we use PRODAS™ software to do this. PRODAS™ is the standard used by most DOD agencies and suppliers when it comes to the design and prediction of projectile aeroballistics. The program has been around for over 40 years. The program operates by using an exact 2D rendering of the projectile along with material properties to accurately determine the mass and inertial properties. This is then combined with predictions of the aerodynamic properties and coefficients by correlating the external aerodynamic shape of the projectile to a very large data base of spark range measurements of similar projectiles.
A spark range is a facility that allows the precise measurement of a projectiles position in space as well as its orientation and angular rate. From this spark range data, precise aerodynamic properties and coefficients are determined for the projectile. PRODAS™ has been validated time and time again over the last forty years by a number of studies by various defense labs with spark range data.
There can be very small errors in some of the coefficient predictions but they are insignificant as it concerns projectile dynamic response and trajectory predictions. In short, we are actually solving analytically the equations of motion and physics of the projectiles flight.
We will be continually adding Hornady and competitors' relevant projectiles to the data base. It is extremely time intensive to generate the projectile files. At this point in time, for typical hunting bullets, we feel any BC based software will provide more than adequate trajectory predictions for their intended use. We will be adding earth based effects soon. This will encompass more than just Coriolis effects. We will also be extending the maximum range of the program to 3,500 meters shortly. App/s will also be coming. We simply wanted to get a working version of the program out there for people to begin to use.
It is our opinion that the proof is in the pudding of any product and is decided by the use of it in real world testing. Merely comparing solutions on a computer establishes nothing, actually shooting the solution will validate the Hornady 4DOF™calculator. We ask that you use the program and give it a fair evaluation before casting judgement on its capabilities. We have expended considerable resources in the development of 4DOF™ and are offering it free of charge as a service to the shooting community.

 

[mpk1996]

Hello Kettle, my name is Pot

don't get me wrong, I love my AB kestrel and it provides great information. I get all companies have to make a decision on how they respond to competition, but I think AB here has made a mistake. From the "marketing" that I have see from Hornady on their new ballistics program they don't claim to be the first or only one to calc ballistics using aerodynamic jump, CE, Spin drift or any of it. They explain that those factors are how they came up with the name rather than say a "3D" name. What they do say is that they don't use BC to calc drop, but a drag factor based on actual Doppler results.

so, it seems to me that AB is trying to use there own "hype" to claim and misconstrue what hornady is saying and how they are doing it to try and not loose business. This is one of those situations where AB had a choice to say something about a new direct competitor or not, and chose the wrong path, in my humble opinion.

BTW, I will say this about the hornady program. in my 6mm Creedmoor shooting hornady 105g hpbt at 2980 fps, I had to really change the MV and BC to get my AB kestrel to true up to my actual dope. once I did, the results were great. but none of the advertised G1, G7 or Litz database numbers were even close. Since that bullet was one of the ones in the new hornady 4DOF data base, I plugged in the parameters and wx numbers for one of the days that I shot and had dope for. The numbers that the Hornady 4DOF spit out were spot on. So maybe its not all hype

 

[Pdvdh]

I recall a PhD member of this forum that once expressed truth regarding misleading claims Berger had made about how some of their bullet BC values were determined. Berger reps blew a gasket on this Forum, even after I attempted to caution them from going down that path. Now Bryan Litz does the same thing to Hornady that he so forcefully opposed when on the receiving end?

I've read both articles, and I'd have to be blind, deaf, and dumb to misunderstand the motivation in Bryan's article. If I misinterpret that the motive is strongly based in business and financial competitiveness, then Bryan should have slept on his article a few nights, read it again, and then removed the criticism that wasn't based on purely technical and scientific merit - BEFORE pulling the trigger. You want to establish yourself as a technical expert, then keep your critique within the realm of the technical science. Your article expressed so much negative opinion of Hornady, that your effort to critique based on the technical and scientific merits was lost in the trade winds.

Our PhD member was indeed correct in his primary allegation against Berger. Eric (on behalf of Berger) eventually acknowledged that their advertised claims of the source of quite some number of bullet BC values were indeed misleading. By the strict reading, the claims were false. Eric apologized and then took corrective measures. For Bryan to have complained and whined over the PhD's exposure of Berger's mis-representation of the basis for their BC values, act as if their critic committed an unforgivable sin, and then now... turn the Applied Ballistics' muzzles toward Hornady? Very hypocritical business decision and behavior, from my perspective. Leaves me wondering if Bryan harbors jealousy over Hornady's Doppler radar equipment. Attacking others with the justification that we're the only experts in this field of science, everyone else is sucking hind t_t, and God's called us to provide the sole and unquestioned truth to the masses doesn't impress. Guilty of the same offenses he claimed the PhD member was committing when he simply exposed the truth about Berger's false claim that all their bullet BC values were measured values.

And then this Applied Ballistics' motto:
"This is the start of the Truth In Performance campaign. Applied Ballistics' mission is to be the complete and unbiased source of external ballistics information for long range shooters. Gaining the knowledge required to master long range shooting is very difficult, even when you have good information. Unfortunately the hyper-marketing/advertising culture we live in is constantly pushing out misleading or outright false information to promote products."

Yeah, I remember a company that did that very thing. That company was Berger.

Is it a Truth in Performance campaign, or an Attack the Competition campaign? Or both under the guise of Truth?

My recommendation for the mission statement involves substituting the word "a" for the word "the". "Applied Ballistics' mission is to be a complete and unbiased source of external ballistic information for long range shooters." Perhaps then Applied Ballistics will feel less compelled to attack the competition, for sharing the very same mission. It's hard walking on water all the time. And failures are so costly.

 

[BergerFan222]

My recommendation for the mission statement involves substituting the word "a" for the word "the". "Applied Ballistics' mission is to be a complete and unbiased source of external ballistic information for long range shooters." Perhaps then Applied Ballistics will feel less compelled to attack the competition, for sharing the very same mission. It's hard walking on water all the time. And failures are so costly.

I appreciate all that Berger and AB have done for the shooting community. But the bottom line is that capitalism and competition make things better. Hornady and Sierra have raised their game over the past decade, in large part in response to improvements from Berger and AB. Now that Lapua is joining forces with Berger and AB, I expect it to get even better. If they could ensure a steady supply, my buddies and I might not ever shoot anything but Berger and Lapua.

But we're glad that Hornady and Sierra are there when Berger can't keep up with demands, and also that Hornady and Sierra continue to improve, thus providing motivation and pressure for Berger and Lapua to also continue improving.

 

[Mikecr]

It seems unprofessional when a company gets defensive, and way more so when they outright attack someone. I've seen Berger(Eric) do this in the past.

When Hornady put out a red version of RCBS ChargeMaster merely to divvy the reward earned by RCBS, I could understand a public attack from RCBS. But they didn't. They stayed in character even while they were hurt by it I'm sure. Maybe Hornady is doing this kind of thing again. And maybe they should take a public whipping for it. I don't know.

 

[BountyHunter]

As Paul Harvey said- Here is the other half of the story.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/faqs/4DOF-Response.pdf

Time will tell.

 

[Mikecr]

History has already told us that people will buy the cheapest or shiny of versions.
That there is no loyalty to original innovators from us.

If Hornady is acting in a way that nearly destroyed Winchester(short magnum patents), then time could lead somewhere different than we think. USPTO is approving pure flimflammeries these days.
Hopefully that's not where either side is going.

 

[jakelly]

If you shoot over 1000 much, you'll know there are problems with ballistic solvers and real world dope. Frank Galli on SH noted the same thing an earlier poster in this thread noted, it matched his actual dope. Real world results kind of speak for themselves.