Marine snipers dump .308 Win, adopt .300 Win Mag

[Deleted member 48126]

Not being facetious brother, but I wish this were always true. Though most Army Snipers are grunts, we still have to remain clandestine. Sneaky-sneaky and getting close to an objective with "support" don't always go hand in hand. I've humped some heavy loads for some long distances and negotiated some horrible terrain to get into places I needed to be.

Not trying to overrule this thread so I will just sit back and read. Always like to hear what others thoughts on these topics are.

Yeah true we've been blessed somewhat in Iraq and certain parts of Afghanistan with complete freedom of maneuver. I can see if you were in northern or eastern afg life would be way different.

 

[SapperRIP]

Did you see the price tag on the rifles for the Marines?!!? 4.3 million for 346 rifles. That's over $12K per rifle!!
I'm surprised they don't go to a 7mm for a sniper round. It will buck the wind better than the 30 cal bullets, and will carry plenty of down range energy at the distances they are looking for. A 7 STW or 28 Nosler would fit that bill nicely. Plus, worse case for a custom rifle with NF ATACR on top would be half of the cost they are going to pay for each rifle.

This is the military we are talking about you take everything you can need and double the price to sell it to them of course. How else are honest politicians supposed to get their kickbacks for "helping" the sale go through.

 

[Bravo 4]

There is a reason most of our equipment cost so much. The contracts will be for the weapon (and probably all gear to employ), maintenance on that weapon (for either a certain time or till a certain amount is met), and then training/fielding of the weapon. And I'm sure there is some padding of the pockets. Do we usually get our money's worth? Not in my eyes. An example of this would be when we got our M110s. The guys from Knights Armament that came down to train us and do the fielding didn't know squat. All they did was made a PowerPoint of the user manual and read it, couldn't answer many questions. Simple things, I remember a PFC asking if it would fire .308 Winchester ammo....
The rep that did the M2010 was a little better, except he tried to feed us some crap when asked about why we are getting ejector swipes on all our fired brass.

Someone mentioned the Accuracy International, it didn't meet the requirements the Army projected. Simple as that. I know someone involved in the testing and asked the same question: How the heck does Remington, Leupold, Knights Armament, and Barrett keep getting these contracts when there is better equipment out there?

 

[Canhunter35]

There is a reason most of our equipment cost so much. The contracts will be for the weapon (and probably all gear to employ), maintenance on that weapon (for either a certain time or till a certain amount is met), and then training/fielding of the weapon. And I'm sure there is some padding of the pockets. Do we usually get our money's worth? Not in my eyes. An example of this would be when we got our M110s. The guys from Knights Armament that came down to train us and do the fielding didn't know squat. All they did was made a PowerPoint of the user manual and read it, couldn't answer many questions. Simple things, I remember a PFC asking if it would fire .308 Winchester ammo....
The rep that did the M2010 was a little better, except he tried to feed us some crap when asked about why we are getting ejector swipes on all our fired brass.

Someone mentioned the Accuracy International, it didn't meet the requirements the Army projected. Simple as that. I know someone involved in the testing and asked the same question: How the heck does Remington, Leupold, Knights Armament, and Barrett keep getting these contracts when there is better equipment out there?

Do you mind me asking what would be your preferred equipment concerning weapon system/scope configuration, heck even cartridge choice? Everyone has an opinion, but I'd like to hear an opinion of someone who has actually done the work.

 

[Bravo 4]

In the real world I would keep it simple:
Primary LR Rifle: AIAW L115A3 (suppressed of course). It is currently fielded be several of our allies.
Chambering: .338 Lapua
The .300 WinMag is a great cartridge but not when compared to what a lot of other countries are using, we need to be able to at least match them on effective range.
I have had a .338 (Edge and/or RUM), and fired many more, for several years now and know what they can do.
Scope: S&B PMII 5-25x56
A lot of great newer scopes on the market but this is still the standard that others are compared, and for good reason.

Spotter/Secondary Rifle:
A lighter and more accurate version of our M110.
Chambering: leave it 7.62x51
More than capable of medium ranges and quick multiple engagements, and the biggest plus...ammo all over the place (on probably any battlefield!). You would understand why I say this if you have ever ran out of ammo in a gunfight.
Optic: I like the size and power (magnification) range of the 3.5-10 MK4 we have on them now. However this scope is 90's technology and needs to be upgraded. Bare minimum of FFP and matching turrets/reticle...there are better choices.

Anti-Material Rifle: get rid of that **** Barrett and get something made for precision, the McMillian Tac-50 that some of our allies use would be great. On top of that, quit giving us delinked M2 ammo. We need some match grade!
Optic: Another Schmidt on this one.

Notice I mentioned a couple of rifles already fielded by other countries. That's because they take it more serious than the U.S. and we are just as of late playing catch-up. Plus these have been fielded for years and are proven performers.
A custom rifle would be great, but has no place where being the one and only can turn into being the one and lonely if repairs are needed...and they will be. When someone says anything to me about thinking we need X or Y cartridge/caliber I may agree about it's perfoance but disagree on it for ammo reasons. In the darkest places on earth, I don't want to be the only fool with a rifle that nobody else in the country has ammo for! If you don't think getting ammo is already a problem then you are fooling yourself.

In a fantasy world I would take my .375 Snipetac (with my suppressor) and maybe an upgrade from the NXS I have mounted.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

@Bravo 4, SF guys have been using the NXS I believe for a while now. I've seen all kinds of scopes on the battlefield used by the US. SWFA, nightforce, unertl, And leupold. I don't know why we can't get scopes straight. You don't like the barret and it's 2 MOA guarantee?? Minute of tank turret right there.

 

[Bravo 4]

2 MOA...man you got a good one!

As for scopes, there is standard issue and then there is a hodgepodge of some get what they want (almost unlimited budget) and others BYOS...bring your own shhhh

 

[Canhunter35]

In the real world I would keep it simple:
Primary LR Rifle: AIAW L115A3 (suppressed of course). It is currently fielded be several of our allies.
Chambering: .338 Lapua
The .300 WinMag is a great cartridge but not when compared to what a lot of other countries are using, we need to be able to at least match them on effective range.
I have had a .338 (Edge and/or RUM), and fired many more, for several years now and know what they can do.
Scope: S&B PMII 5-25x56
A lot of great newer scopes on the market but this is still the standard that others are compared, and for good reason.

Spotter/Secondary Rifle:
A lighter and more accurate version of our M110.
Chambering: leave it 7.62x51
More than capable of medium ranges and quick multiple engagements, and the biggest plus...ammo all over the place (on probably any battlefield!). You would understand why I say this if you have ever ran out of ammo in a gunfight.
Optic: I like the size and power (magnification) range of the 3.5-10 MK4 we have on them now. However this scope is 90's technology and needs to be upgraded. Bare minimum of FFP and matching turrets/reticle...there are better choices.

Anti-Material Rifle: get rid of that **** Barrett and get something made for precision, the McMillian Tac-50 that some of our allies use would be great. On top of that, quit giving us delinked M2 ammo. We need some match grade!
Optic: Another Schmidt on this one.

Notice I mentioned a couple of rifles already fielded by other countries. That's because they take it more serious than the U.S. and we are just as of late playing catch-up. Plus these have been fielded for years and are proven performers.
A custom rifle would be great, but has no place where being the one and only can turn into being the one and lonely if repairs are needed...and they will be. When someone says anything to me about thinking we need X or Y cartridge/caliber I may agree about it's perfoance but disagree on it for ammo reasons. In the darkest places on earth, I don't want to be the only fool with a rifle that nobody else in the country has ammo for! If you don't think getting ammo is already a problem then you are fooling yourself.

In a fantasy world I would take my .375 Snipetac (with my suppressor) and maybe an upgrade from the NXS I have mounted.

Well I'm glad my guys( the Canadians) at least are using something decent with the tac 50. I feel like our sniper program is the only thing our military gets anything good for and if it was up to our current government, they'd give em back bayonets and say, "budget cuts boys, good luck."

 

[Capt RB]

In the real world I would keep it simple:
Primary LR Rifle: AIAW L115A3 (suppressed of course). It is currently fielded be several of our allies.
Chambering: .338 Lapua
The .300 WinMag is a great cartridge but not when compared to what a lot of other countries are using, we need to be able to at least match them on effective range.
I have had a .338 (Edge and/or RUM), and fired many more, for several years now and know what they can do.
Scope: S&B PMII 5-25x56
A lot of great newer scopes on the market but this is still the standard that others are compared, and for good reason.

Spotter/Secondary Rifle:
A lighter and more accurate version of our M110.
Chambering: leave it 7.62x51
More than capable of medium ranges and quick multiple engagements, and the biggest plus...ammo all over the place (on probably any battlefield!). You would understand why I say this if you have ever ran out of ammo in a gunfight.
Optic: I like the size and power (magnification) range of the 3.5-10 MK4 we have on them now. However this scope is 90's technology and needs to be upgraded. Bare minimum of FFP and matching turrets/reticle...there are better choices.

Anti-Material Rifle: get rid of that **** Barrett and get something made for precision, the McMillian Tac-50 that some of our allies use would be great. On top of that, quit giving us delinked M2 ammo. We need some match grade!
Optic: Another Schmidt on this one.

Notice I mentioned a couple of rifles already fielded by other countries. That's because they take it more serious than the U.S. and we are just as of late playing catch-up. Plus these have been fielded for years and are proven performers.
A custom rifle would be great, but has no place where being the one and only can turn into being the one and lonely if repairs are needed...and they will be. When someone says anything to me about thinking we need X or Y cartridge/caliber I may agree about it's perfoance but disagree on it for ammo reasons. In the darkest places on earth, I don't want to be the only fool with a rifle that nobody else in the country has ammo for! If you don't think getting ammo is already a problem then you are fooling yourself.

In a fantasy world I would take my .375 Snipetac (with my suppressor) and maybe an upgrade from the NXS I have mounted.

I'd like to see a 338 in the LRKM or desert tech fashion over the ai version. They could run the 30" tube and still have a manageable size in that platform. The chassis's available for the M1A/M14 would imho be a better way than the 110 which I'm bias having carried an M21 on a few occasions. I think a fixed 6 or another option for that platform is the Elcan1.5/6 is battle proven and some very nice glass. 308bdc reticle for it and done
Can't argue with S&B 5x25
Wouldn't anti material be better with a radio and cannon cocker on the other end of it? I read that SOCOM has adopted the 6.5 creed in a gas gun. The whole what about ammo was the first thing I thought about when I read it. It'd be a great option in that platform until they ran out of bullets in a firefight. Then what look for a cabellas or wall mart?? I like the cartridge having played with it for a few months. I think it would be a great round for medium range work but no crossover would leave you high and dry when it counts most.

 

[Bravo 4]

The EBR is a decent choice, we had them for Squad Designated Marksman rifles. I would not choose them over the AR platform.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

@Capt RB SOCOM is all about what's the newest gear queer crap to show they are better than the FORSCOM guys.

All that happens in all organizations is you get flooded with too much crap, too much "tech" support, and too many mandated training requirements. Every unit ends up with that one specialized soldier who's been trained on all this stuff to get your required training numbers up to report to BN, BDE, DIV, etc to get them off your balls. Then that one soldier gets burned out, leaves the army, and you have all this crap sitting around that you have to maintain that no one uses. It needs to be kept simple. Anti personnel sniper system and anti material system. Both need to be .5 MOA performers and you use the same model optic for both systems. Everyone gets the same rifle and optic combo for ease of training, logistic support, maintenance, and eventual implementation. There's too many good idea fairies running around wasting Soldiers valuable training time and your valuable tax payers dollars.

I was told all the smart officers get out when their contract is up. The longer I stay in the more I see it. Even though soldiers are the ones using this stuff and training on, the officers are the ones petitioning for it, writing up the contracts, coming up with money, and creating the training plans.

units are literally flooded with new equipment and given half assed training to get them proficient with it. It's just this never ending cycle of madness. Sorry for the rant. This new sniper system is just a regular day in the armed forces for us. I'm just bitter, and I'm out in 30 days after 8 years and 3 deployments dealing with this BS. Don't listen to me.

Also @Capt RB none of that was directed at you. You were just providing relevant info to the thread.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I'd like to see a 338 in the LRKM or desert tech fashion over the ai version. They could run the 30" tube and still have a manageable size in that platform. The chassis's available for the M1A/M14 would imho be a better way than the 110 which I'm bias having carried an M21 on a few occasions. I think a fixed 6 or another option for that platform is the Elcan1.5/6 is battle proven and some very nice glass. 308bdc reticle for it and done
Can't argue with S&B 5x25
Wouldn't anti material be better with a radio and cannon cocker on the other end of it? I read that SOCOM has adopted the 6.5 creed in a gas gun. The whole what about ammo was the first thing I thought about when I read it. It'd be a great option in that platform until they ran out of bullets in a firefight. Then what look for a cabellas or wall mart?? I like the cartridge having played with it for a few months. I think it would be a great round for medium range work but no crossover would leave you high and dry when it counts most.

You can... Look through a March-X, Kahles K624i, or U.S.Optics. The S&B with it's yellow tint will look like a 1980's Tasco in comparison.

 

[Capt RB]

Mud
The 5-25 is not the latest gen S&B The latest ultra brite PM series will blow your options out of the water. I shoot a march often. I tried the Kahles on a customers rifle and I had an early gen USO. The Kahles if it stays together is a good option dunno how long service would be. The USO I owned 3.2-17x44 was nothing to write home about glass wise. Rugged as hell but the glass was looking up at NSX glass. The latest gen is suppose to be far better I haven't seen one nor have I looked to either.
March makes a nice scope but I don't feel it would stand up to duty use very long at all. There is a reason why the most often used in military ops are heavy as hell.
300Whisper I understand the frustration and no worries rant away maybe someone will have an aww **** moment and touch the right buttons

 

[Bravo 4]

Capt RB,
Yes arty, mortars, close combat attack aircraft, and close air support are better for anti material. That is why I mentioned the best weapon/tool a Sniper has in his arsenal is a radio.