machined drive band bullets?

[Deleted member 46119]

I agree with Gerard Schultz and believe the Mono haters are living in a world of assumptions and generalizations that they would never dare to apply to jacketed bullets. The Mono haters want to believe that Mono's can't perform with Jacketed so they do, physics be damned.

1) Way more expensive: I disagree. Mono's are all pretty 'premium' and I would compare them to Nosler Hunting or Swifts. Expense is relative.
2) Low Sectional Density: That's physics, can't argue. Mitigate by propelling them to higher velocities as they should be and as I've said. With Mono's go lighter, go faster. Maintain the same length to diameter aspect ratio and go faster.
3) Less energy on target. Compared to what, at what distance and any number of factors. Learn how to drive them properly and they have all the energy needed to do the job. I can make a Jacketed Load that has far more energy leaving the barrel but falls down after a few hundred yards. I can make a Mono of the same weight that retains it's energy for very long distances even over a mile.
4) Do not obturate to the bore: Cough, cough BS, cough cough. I probably disagree with Gerald here. There are enough pictures in the "Not so Scientific" thread to prove that. It's a dimensional thing not a Monometal thing.
5) Take much longer to manufacture...: Cough, cough BS, cough cough. The weight distribution of my 500 bullet sample of 308 180grs TTSX had less deviation than my 500 bullet sample of 210 grs VLDs. Flat more expensive than cheap Jacketed because that much more copper is more expensive than lead. It's a market issue. Turned Monos have more machine time and that can add to the expense but I don't think they are any more expensive per bullet than others. Later today I will make a spreadsheet to calculate per bullet costs. I already know that Woodleigh are more expensive than any Monos.
6) Need assistance expanding: Cough, cough BS, cough cough. Where did you get than idea? Different Meplat+Hollow Point or Tips expand differently per the design velocity parameters. There is nothing inherent about Monos that make it necessary to assist in expansion. Will a TTSX expand better at low velocity than a TSX, yup. Will a GameKing expand better at low velocity than a SMK, yup. It's the design not the materials.
7) Ridiculous advertising: "That is not confined to monos but to all bullet manufacturers". You think the 26 Nosler is not "Ridiculous advertising". It's just advertising. EOS (end of story)

If you want to hate monos hate monos. No one controls your feelings but it's not fair to other shooters, especially us stuck in the Soviet Socialist Republic of California to spread falsehoods about monos.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Mr Schultz,
I think we are better understanding each other, now that we are getting more detailed in our discussion.

This will always be the case. One cannot compare the cost of turned bullets to the cost of stamped bullets. Stamped bullets are made faster and that brings the cost down. But there is a downside to stamped bullets as well. There are limits to what can be done with stamping technology. It is dependent on dies that wear out and has to be replaced and stamped shapes are limited to what one can do with them. Turning means that one can design and draw the perfect shape and then make it. There are much fewer limitations with turning and stamping is only cheaper.

I completely agree.

For a given twist, monos are lighter than jacketed lead bullets because it is the length and shape of a bullet that determines how it works, not the weight. A properly designed mono that is lighter, but the correct length for a given twist, will in any case go deeper than a heavier bullet, regardless of whether the heavier bullet is a mono or a jacketed bullet. So, do not compare weight to weight, the weight is of no importance. It is the work that a bullet can do that determines its usefulness.

Again i agree.
I also stated penetration of solids is unmatched. I had no intention of comparing weight, i only intended to draw attention to the twist requirements of monolithic bullets because the density of the material from which they are made.

However the statement in bold, i do not understand. I would think of two similarly designed monolithic bullets, for the same caliber, the heavier bullet would travel further and penetrate deeper. Perhaps you can elaborate?

Weight for weight, GSC will always launch faster than any other grooved mono or jacketed lead core bullet. So you may be right when it comes to other bullets but this is one of the areas where we respectfully ask not to be compared to the generic idea of what a mono is. With GSC bullets we are always lighter than traditional bullets but it must be remembered that BC often increases with speed as well. With a lighter bullet going faster, shapes are very close in BC and speed brings many advantages with monos.

I will honor your request of not comparing the attainable velocities of gsc monos to others i have tested with and have data for, since i actually do not have any first hand experience with your bullets. Although, If you decided to send me a sample of the heaviest 30 cal bullets you make for a 1:10 twist i would have no problem executing a test and posting my results, pending your approval.

Youre absolutely right, bc increases with speed, and the very high bc that can be achieved by pushing a very aerodynamic lathe turned projectile is most definitely a large advantage of monos. This i do not argue.

An obvious point to be considered here by anyone reading along, is that copper, bronze, and brass are not as malleable as lead and can exhibit much more outward pressure on a barrel bore. This is what makes cannelure and drive band designs critical to achieving high velocity for a givin weight monolithic bullet. In my opinion, many of the designs out there are a significant crutch in this aspect, and was the origin of my comment. Looking at some published load data that is readily available, can clearly show which projectiles suffer from this problem.

This may be right with usual monos but GSC has solved the problem and they seal as well as jacketed lead bullets. This is another area where we respectfully ask not to be compared to other monos because our design is different. If a bore is so bad that a jacketed bullet has problems sealing it, we tend to recommend replacing the barrel as it is no longer within spec.

Again i will respect you request, but this is a problem i encountered with some mono bullets shot from factory barrels. With a custom barrel cut to much stricter tolerances and finer finishes this issue is probably non existent. I simply thought it was a point to be aware of for those deciding to try monolithics. Sorting by diameter is more crucial to maintaining a low es and sd because of these particular metals resistance to obturate, and if you know you have a barrel whose bore is on the upper end of a manufactures tolerance this problem is something you may have to deal with.

You put your finger on it. CNC lathes are usually similar but thermal growth is not a problem because choose a make of machine where this is not a problem. Also, we replace inserts more often than most. We have had a number of companies have a look at our QC to see how we do it. See the About Us section on our South African site.

We also use machines with a very involved temperature compensation software and numerous axial readouts and fail safe devices, and we still have had difficulty with these machines holding tolerances and behaving properly. Machines have come a long way since i began running them but there is no replacement for the warm body that sits in front of it.

I have read through your website multiple times in the past and multiple times yesterday after your post. Youre procedures for checking machine and equipment calibration as well as in process inspection are top notch, as well as far ahead of the curve by what is typical in the machining community and by american standards and requirements. This is no doubt how youre company is able to hold the tolerances specified on your website. This is similar to the process i used when producing my own bullets. Which i deemed to laborous. Id rather spend my weekends shooting instead of standing in front of a machine. I have Mon-Fri for that.

You are right. Monos will never disintegrate completely, that is their strong point. With a well designed mono, one gets a reliability of terminal function that is much better than any other bullet, including some monos.

I hope I have answered some misconceptions and bear in mind that we do not know it all and development/improvement of our product never stops. We are always looking for areas to improve and input from users is always welcome.

Again we are in agreement.
However, ive come to prefer the disintegration of lead core jacket bullets, although it is not at consistent and reliable as the expansion of controlled expansion monos, neither are my hunting habits, and this particular trait is one that ive come to know and use to my advantages. Not saying one is better than the other, just simply stating this is another thing to be considered when choosing a bullet for hunting.

You have no doubt answered some questions, and i personally have enjoyed this discussion so far, and thank you for you time spent contributing. Im sure you are a busy man and these post are getting rather long.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Jfseaman,

Im assuming your post is aimed at me since you decided to use my points of objection to comment on. Correct me if im mistaken.

These topics are currently being discussed to what i think is great detail, and i encourage you to re read mr shcultz's and my post, because your comments on these topics have already, if not currently, been addressed.

And i do not in any regard consider myself a monolithic bullet hater, ive have spent countless hours developing and improving my own monolithic designs from which i have developed points of objection and concern for using them. I in no way intend to bash monolithic bullets as a whole, im simply trying to create a balanced awareness for people debating whether or not to use them.

 

[tony m]

this is very informative - in Canada are choices at this point don't include machined bullets(yet).I have tried.Unless they can be imported from South Africa.I do believe,without any personal experience of course,the tolerances are superior.Keep on-keeping on, everybody.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Chill dude, it ain't that personal.

I know you brought it up to discuss but you made statements of fact.

Yup Mr. Schults addressed them. I agreed with most but with a slightly different point of view and one is flat wrong but he probably has that view because of competitors.

Jfseaman,

Im assuming your post is aimed at me since you decided to use my points of objection to comment on. Correct me if im mistaken.

These topics are currently being discussed to what i think is great detail, and i encourage you to re read mr shcultz's and my post, because your comments on these topics have already, if not currently, been addressed.

And i do not in any regard consider myself a monolithic bullet hater, ive have spent countless hours developing and improving my own monolithic designs from which i have developed points of objection and concern for using them. I in no way intend to bash monolithic bullets as a whole, im simply trying to create a balanced awareness for people debating whether or not to use them.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Chill dude, it ain't that personal.

I know you brought it up to discuss but you made statements of fact.

Yup Mr. Schults addressed them. I agreed with most but with a slightly different point of view and one is flat wrong but he probably has that view because of competitors.

Im plenty chill "dude"
Why dont you clarify exactly how personal it is so i can respond more to your liking the next time you accuse me of spreading falsehoods and B.S.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Im plenty chill "dude"
Why dont you clarify exactly how personal it is so i can respond more to your liking the next time you accuse me of spreading falsehoods and B.S.

Sounds like your hackles are up. Sorry, that was not my intention and and that's not conducive to a discussion.

I'm not accusing you of anything. Again, sorry if you feel that way but it was not the idea. I used Schultz's post which did not say in the quote who wrote what he was responding to. I ignored who the original poster was because I read it from the quote where it could have been altered from the original.

The reason I added the "cough, cough" was to be tongue in cheek.

I thought you put those "points of interest" out to discuss them, metaphorically, not necessarily as your own beliefs. It was my belief in responding that the "points of interest" were drawn from multiple sources to further the discussion. So my comment that a "point of interest" was BS was that there are people who believe it and have been indoctrinated in falsehoods.

I didn't regurgitate Schultz's comments, I've been stating facts about copper for quite a while. I have an interest in the subject because I live in the Soviet Socialist Republic of California where common sense is very uncommon and copper is required. When hunting, even a personal protection side arm must be loaded with copper. Minimum fine is I think $1,500 max is $5,000 and all firearms will be confiscated on the spot. California politics is a bit like the "Borg" in "Startrek", "resistance is futile". Well not really but until we can find some way to combat the copper fanatics, then learn to use copper well.

I can get copper loads to hold sub 1/2 MOA precision from a 300 yard zero to 1000 yards. Confirned by 1000+ yard kill on feral hog, +700 yards on game.

Oh and lastly, I've been migrating some loads from Barnes to CEBs and I'm having good success with that. Probably will get some GSC soon.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Sounds like your hackles are up. Sorry, that was not my intention and and that's not conducive to a discussion.

I'm not accusing you of anything. Again, sorry if you feel that way but it was not the idea. I used Schultz's post which did not say in the quote who wrote what he was responding to. I ignored who the original poster was because I read it from the quote where it could have been altered from the original.

The reason I added the "cough, cough" was to be tongue in cheek.

I thought you put those "points of interest" out to discuss them, metaphorically, not necessarily as your own beliefs. It was my belief in responding that the "points of interest" were drawn from multiple sources to further the discussion. So my comment that a "point of interest" was BS was that there are people who believe it and have been indoctrinated in falsehoods.

I didn't regurgitate Schultz's comments, I've been stating facts about copper for quite a while. I have an interest in the subject because I live in the Soviet Socialist Republic of California where common sense is very uncommon and copper is required. When hunting, even a personal protection side arm must be loaded with copper. Minimum fine is I think $1,500 max is $5,000 and all firearms will be confiscated on the spot. California politics is a bit like the "Borg" in "Startrek", "resistance is futile". Well not really but until we can find some way to combat the copper fanatics, then learn to use copper well.

I can get copper loads to hold sub 1/2 MOA precision from a 300 yard zero to 1000 yards. Confirned by 1000+ yard kill on feral hog, +700 yards on game.

Oh and lastly, I've been migrating some loads from Barnes to CEBs and I'm having good success with that. Probably will get some GSC soon.

If your apology is sincere, then it is accepted.

I understand you missed the post where i stated my points of interest, for discussion, and thats is another reason i urge you to re-read the last few post after those points were stated, because those points were then discussed in greater detail. I think after you re read those post you will understand why i feel those attributes are related to monolithic bullets, and the reasons i have for stating them.

If you still feel these attributes are not relevant to monos of a particular brand or as a whole, we can then re hash why, or you can pm me if you would like. Im always willing to have private discussions if they are not in line with the current direction of the thread.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Gentlemen,

G.S.Customs are expensive. But when you look at the cost of a custom rifle, a mid-level cost scope, an out of state hunt or two and they are a small part of the expense of hunting.

I am coming to the party a little late, but my info is current. Almost anyway. Last year I killed two bucks with GS Custom .257 85HV bullets. The first was a buck about 100 yards away and had a live weight around 150 pounds. The muzzle velocity was slightly more than 3,600 feet per second. The first shot hit just in front of the right rear leg and exited behind the left front leg. The exit hole was a long oval shape. Despite the bullet hitting about half way between the belly and the back the shock was sufficient to paralyze the back half of the deer. When it turned broadside I put another through its ribs. The whole chest cavity was mush.

The second buck was closer to 200 pounds live weight. It was no more than fifty yards away. Since it was facing me I fired at center chest with a muzzle velocity of 3,900 feet per second. The bullet traveled the length of its body and damaged its pelvis. The chest was filled with bloody soup.

In the past I used the 7mm 130HV and the 265HV bullets. These have been more accurate in my rifles than any other bullets I used.

 

[tony m]

I think your just fashionably late.Good information.Cost of a tiny, perfect projectile is not an issue..in my opinion.Thanks

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Wildcatter

You have a valid point, and you bring another positive of using mono's, and that is high velocity rounds with tight twist cant seperate a mono as it can a jacket lead bullet.

 

[bigngreen]

I've shot some really good all copper bullets and some real poor! I've been very happy with driving band designs like the GS Custom or Cutting Edge bullets, I still shoot some Barnes but only on light game and coyotes just to many issues once you start pushing the range.
I tend to shoot more cals in the mid size range but will push the ranges with all of them, the monos still have room for improvement IMO. There are some things that just will never be over come like BC and needing to twist up to shoot the best bullets.
The two issues that I can constantly produce and don't like, one is the percentage of bullets that will deflect on heavy bone and not penetrate the vitals and two is the size of the wound channels. Last year while testing a mono I had one bullet enter an elks neck and turn up and exit the top of the neck, fortunately the bullet turned in the center of the spine and did hit the cord. A second elk took a bullet through first few ribs, passing within 1/2 inch of the major arteries running up the neck the punching the spine and there was not a single bit of damage to the arteries which would have killed it fast without the need for a second shot.
Still looking for the perfect mono that will match at least the terminal performance of a cup and core at long range, I can deal with a little less BC but I gotta have a good permanent wound channel that tracks through the animal till it's ran out of steam.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

If your apology is sincere, then it is accepted.

I understand you missed the post where i stated my points of interest, for discussion, and thats is another reason i urge you to re-read the last few post after those points were stated, because those points were then discussed in greater detail. I think after you re read those post you will understand why i feel those attributes are related to monolithic bullets, and the reasons i have for stating them.

If you still feel these attributes are not relevant to monos of a particular brand or as a whole, we can then re hash why, or you can pm me if you would like. Im always willing to have private discussions if they are not in line with the current direction of the thread.

The apology is sincere.

We still disagree but let's not put emotion on differences of opinion.

I don't want to rehash anything.

 

[tony m]

Hey fellas/gals-you machinists out there.Is there a way to, machine a drive band on a monolithic bullet? Would this true it up as well? Just asking. thanks