Long Range Elk/Bear Rifle???

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well the time has almost come for my dad to send his rem 700 300 RUM LSS off to get rebarreled to something. First off, this rifle has to be no more then 11-12 lbs, and the lighter the better. We hunt canyons almost every day for elk and a rifle of that weight just is not fun to pack. Second, the range of this rifle needs to be from 100 yards all the way out to 1500 yards. Third it needs to be able to cleanly wack an elk at 1500 yards if need be. This leaves me with the cartridge to select. We are obviously wanting some horsepower here so I suggested the 338 EDGE w/the 300g SMK at 2850-2900fps. I was also looking at the 7mm AM w/the 200g Wildcat at 3200fps. From what I can see comparing these 2 ballistically is that the 7mm basically spanks it. However, I guess theres no replacement for that 300g slug. Also, the drop of the 338 is huge compared to that of the smaller diameter. I know we'll have to get at least a 20 MOA base, and for now he'll be using a leupold vx2 6-18 target scope. Hopefully that will get us out to 1500 yards with the 338. I know that would work with the 7mm AM as its way flatter shooting. We are open to suggestions here but dont want to get into anything to exotic. I was also thinking of the 7 STW with a 28" barrel shooting the 180g VLD or 200g wildcat, but after looking at the ballistics, I dont think that would have enough power at 1500 yards. I guess there is also the 270 AM or 277 AM shooting the big 195g bullet. I am kinda stuck as to whether I want the big 300g bullet with a .7 BC, or a lighter 190-200g bullet with a .9 BC or so.

 

[screech]

those two would be my choice to. maybe fiftydriver will coment.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

This is what I get from my ballistic program. 7mm AM 200g ULD at 3150fps with a .9 BC, 200 yard zero, 10 mph wind.

1000 yards it has 2082 ft lbs energy, 2165fps, drops 183 inches and drifts 35 inches.

338 EDGE 300g SMK at 2850fps, .720 BC, same zero and wind.
1000 yards it has 1992 ft lbs energy, 1729fps, drops 250 inches and drift 53 inches.

Now we get to 1500 yards. 7mm AM has around 1364 ft lbs energy, still scooting 1750 fps, and drops 527 inches and drifts 86 inches.

The 338 EDGE at 1500 yards has 1146 ft lbs energy, going 1312 fps, and drops 761 inches and drifts 136 inches.

Now from what I gather here is the 7mm AM and that 200g bullet is pretty dang good ballistically. At 1500 yards, its drop is about 1/3 of the 338, the velocity is 400fps faster, the drift is also about 1/3 of the 338. Also, the 7mm hits with about 200lbs more energy, but with a smaller diameter bullet. When you look at this way, the 7mm AM seems to be the way to fly...Although, there is no replacement for that big 300g slug. What are your guys thoughts on the ballistics here?? I'm not sure if a 20 MOA base and a leupold vx2 6-18 Target will have enough elevation to get the 338 out to 1500 yards. That thing drops A LOT more then I thought it would. I am also thinking that the 338 at 1500 yards is kinda iffy on the velocity since its barely above 1300fps. WOuld that open up that distance?? I would feel a lot better with a bullet hitting 1700fps and ensure some kinda expansion. Your guys thoughts on that??

 

[Shawn Carlock]

The 300 SMK bc is .768. It helps some. I don't believe that flatter is everything. The 7 AM is a great round. I have mixed feelings about the 200 gr bullet and small diameter for terminal effects. I just posted about this on the 338 EDGE thread. In terms of exterior ballistics the 7 AM is better than the Edge no doubt there. The question in my mind is what works better after the impact. I like the idea of more mass. I have never owned a 7 AM. Hopefully Kirby will chime in as he has seen the effects of both the bigger 338's and the 7 AM firsthand.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Ooops, my bad Shawn, your right about the 300g SMK BC being .768. Yes that would help it some. Still though, the 7mm doesn't only shoot flatter, it drifts quite a bit less at every distance, has quite a bit more retained velocity, and from 800 yards on out, it does hit harder with more ft lbs, but like you say, the bigger 300g slug has more mass. Im interested to see what Kirby has to say on this subject.

 

[Shawn Carlock]

After hunting with him I have an idea but will let him jump in here.

 

[hvyw8t]

My 7 AM easily aproaches 3300 fps with the big 200 grain wildcat, couple that with a BC of .910 and you have a bigtime long range HAMMER.

 

[davewilson]

i don't want to start another BC debate, but i guess there's no other way around it.myself and several others, that would be Darryl Cassel and a few of his long range hunters/competitors have tested these bullets and all i'm gonna say is,the 338/300 gr SMK has a higher BC than the 200 wildcat.

last year i had a 7RUM and shot 200 gr wildcats. this year i'm shooting a 338/300RUM shooting 300 gr SMK's.i will never go back to a 7mm after having a 338. if you want to kill elk at 1500, a 300 gr 338 cal is just better than any 7mm.

 

[goodgrouper]

I think both guns have impressive exterior ballistics. But there are a couple of things to keep in mind. One, the 7 AM mag leaves no room for practice because it is what you might say is an overbored overbore. Barrel life will be fleeting so you'd better luck into a load quick and then just shoot several rounds per year or you will be rebarreling. This is the price you pay for a lazer flat, long range hammer.
Second thing to remember is that a flat trajectory has little to do with terminal ballistics. Bullet construction is paramount. I don't want to step on anybody's toes here, but thus far, Wildcat bullets are too new to say it is the optimum killing bullet that can be chosen. Most of the stories I've read here about their damage on game at extreme range have yet to win me over. Take it from a guy who has documented a full cartridge development from step one with a certain bullet in mind and then had it fail in the killing department, it really sucks to blow precious rounds down your spendy barrel only to find that the bullets just zipped through.
Third thing to remember, Berger is going to make a VLD .338 250 grain and 300 grain next year. If these are made with a J4 jacket, you can bet they will open up nicely even at 1500 yards and the bc is reported to be huge.

Another point to consider:
I have actually tested one batch of 300 grain MK's at .810 bc. Then the next batch was .790. If the 250 or 300 grain Berger VLD is in this neighborhood of bc, it will render the 300 grain MK basically useless.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well after having my dad look at the ballistics and from what everyone is saying, he still wants to go with the 338 EDGE. He has always kinda liked 338" cals anyway. He had a good idea in saying that he'll build the 338 EDGE for LR elk, and then I"ll build the LR 7mm for deer. He said he would still rather have that 300g slug hitting an elk then a 200g. The choice is completely his, just thought the 7 AM would give him food for thought. When Berger comes out with there 300g VLD, it should have a higher BC then the SMK. Thanks for the comments guys.