Little help please

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by remingtonman_25_06, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    I am having a bit of trouble getting my resized cases to fit in my dads Winchester black shadow in .270 WSM. I have the die adjusted to where when your all the way up on the handle, the base is almost touching the shell holder. To my understanding this is as far as I can go and there still not going into the rifle at all. My dad is gettin a little mad because his last Winchester did the same thing. I really dont know what to do, any suggestions please?
     
  2. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    um, the shellholder should be CAMMING fairly hard off the bottom of the die to get a FLsize!

    if you arent touching hte bottom of the die and camming to make up for the slack in the press, then you arent even touching the shoulder.

    with stock dies, you need to cam hard to bump the shoulder back--otherwise you run into your current situation [​IMG]

    screw the die down till the shell holder hits it HARD and the press handle cams over--then size and chamber--

    this should fix your problem.

    JB

    [ 11-19-2004: Message edited by: jb1000br ]
     
  3. Ray Meketa

    Ray Meketa Well-Known Member

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    Rem-man

    Follow JB's advice. If that still doesn't work it may be that you have a too long die or a too high shell holder, or both. It is possible to take a little off the bottom of the die. However, it is very hard and requires grinding or a lathe and carbide cutter. You might also ask your shooting buddies if any of them have dies for the same caliber and try them. Third, try smoking a fired case and chamber it. That will tell you what still needs to be sized. It may not be the shoulder at all but rather some other point on the case. On second thought, try this step first.
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    I agree with the above posts.

    Also, just screwing the die down to touch the shell holder may not be enough as when there is a case in the shell holder, the compression of the system will be severl thousandths.

    Most of my rifles are cut to very min specs. In rifles like this, many times a conventional sizing die will just barely bump the shoulder. TO get the most sizing out of your die screw the die down hard against the empty shell holder and then lower the ram and insert a lubed case and raise the ram to its top position. Where the die was touching the shellholder before, there will be a significant gap now.

    Lower the ram just enough to take the pressure off and screw teh die down 1/8 turn and then raise the ram again and see how much of the gap was taken up.

    Do this until your cases fit in your chamber. If you reach the absolute bottom of the sizing length, take the die to your local gunsmith or machinest and have 0.020" cut off the base of the die.

    I highly recommend doing this in a Lathe to insure a square cut.

    0.020" should not remove the bevel at the mouth of the sizing die but be sure that if it does or there is a sharp edge anywhere that it is polished smooth before using.

    From the sounds of your set up this will probably not be needed. Be sure to watch and make sure you only size what you need. We do not want to open up the headspace on the case and get case stretching problems.

    Turn it down 1/8 turn, size and chamber, follow until the case just chambers and then generally another 1/8" turn will have you set up right for big game factory rifles.

    Good Shooting!!!

    Kirby Allen (50)
     
  5. LB

    LB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, all true. Another thing, described in RCBS instructions that come with every set of FL dies is to screw the die in until it touches the shell plate, at the top of the stroke. Then lower the ram and screw the die in another third of a revolution, forget exactly how much? But leaving the lock ring loose, cam the ram back up until the shell plate toggles over against the base of the die. Then tighten the lock nut. This helps alignment between the shell plate and the die body. Kind of "loads" the press, same as it does during sizing. Sounds more complicated than it is. In any case, you should be able to feel the bump on the shoulder; best described as a little resistance felt on the handle as the ram toggles over.

    My guess(?) is that you have a procedural error, and probably don't need any die modifications.

    Good hunting. LB
     
  6. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    Well I thought I understood well enough to get it to work. The cases are still not chambering into the gun. The cases started out new and have only been fired once. We have had problems like this before, but usually only occured with Winchester rifles. I still dont see how the case that was fired out of that dang gun will not go back into the same gun. I spent well over an hour messing with the dies and shellholder all to no avail. I'll tell you all what I did step by step. First I screwed in the FL die. I then put the handle all the way down, so that the shellholder would be all the way to the top. I then proceeded to screw it down 1/2 turn more so that the shell holder was hitting rather hard on the base of the die. I then lubed a case and ran it through. It did not fit. I repeated the process untill I screwed the die almost all the way down except for 2 threeads. The case still did not fit. Am I still doing something wrong here or what? When the case is in the die, there is a little space between the shellholder and die but I dont feel any resistance really. And that was throughout the whole process. That must be why its not resizing. But the damn handle just stops, it dont wanna go any farther. I feel like im going to break the bench. I'm not quite sure I understand what the "camming" part means either. Can someone please explain maybe in layman terms what to do? I mean, I thought I read Fiftydriver and jb1000br directions quite well and understood them, but I guess not cause the damn cases still wont fit. I mean what the hell, how hard can it be to size a damn case anyways, well must be pretty hard if its me, or thats just my luck. But, I really need to get it figured out because my dad wants to take it to a gunsmith and I told him thats not the problem.
     
  7. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    camming:

    the shellholder should hit the base of the die before it is at the bottom of the stroke--after it hits the die, keep pushing of the handle and it will CAM over (pushing even harder against the bottom of the die) and this removes the play/flex from the system.

    clear as mud.

    so even though you are CAMMING over on the die, the case still doesnt completely enter the die when sizing?

    when FL sizing there should be no gap between the shellholder and die (with, or without the case involved.

    sounds like to case is physically too hard for your press to push the shoulder back--hence the gap even though it cams with no case present.

    im confuzzled [​IMG]

    JB
     
  8. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    camming:

    the shellholder should hit the base of the die before it is at the bottom of the stroke--after it hits the die, keep pushing of the handle and it will CAM over (pushing even harder against the bottom of the die) and this removes the play/flex from the system.

    clear as mud.

    so even though you are CAMMING over on the die, the case still doesnt completely enter the die when sizing?

    when FL sizing there should be no gap between the shellholder and die (with, or without the case involved.

    sounds like to case is physically too hard for your press to push the shoulder back--hence the gap even though it cams with no case present.

    im confuzzled [​IMG]

    JB
     
  9. LB

    LB Well-Known Member

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    yeah. so simple and yet, so confusing.

    It almost sounds, to me like you might be screwing the die in, way too far, at this point? If you do that, the case will go up into the die as far as you can force it, and yet, the handle isn't as far as it should go. And, you don't (and can't) get caming action with just arm pressure, alone. IF you are not getting the complete stroke, it won't toggle over.

    This is a situation where a thousand words doesn't compare to a brief demonstration.

    Start over, and read your directions very carefully. In fact, it might be helpful to start with the die and the shellplate having something on the order of a quater inch gap, when all the way up. Then, begin screwing the die in until you make contact. Then back off (a little) on the handle and screw the die in a ¼ turn at a time, until you feel a toggling operation, as you repeat the last portion of the stroke. At some point, you will feel this toggling.....unless you go past it!

    If you do that, you should be able to tell that you have because your stroke will be actually shorter, and will CONTINUE to get incrementally shorter with every additional clockwise adjustment. If you go PAST the toggle point, it will NEVER cam over, the more you screw it in. Your stroke will just get shorter and shorter, like going from a 180º arc to 178º, and so on. This will be your only clue.

    Consequently, you will not be using the mechanical leverage built into the press, and depending on your chamber dimentions, you might not be strong enough to force the shoulder back where it belongs. In other words, this doesn't have anything to do with Winchesters. It has to do with the difference between full length, and neck sizing.

    Geeze, this is really clear as mud, ain't it?

    Don't give up, you will catch on. LB

    [ 11-23-2004: Message edited by: LB ]
     
  10. Aussie

    Aussie Well-Known Member

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    Remingtonman ,
    Sounds from your last post like you have followed the correct procedure .
    Have you checked your case lengths ? Winchester brass sometimes exceeds maximum length after only one firing .
    If that's not the problem then I think I can explain the correct die setup procedure in a way that you'll easily understand so here goes ...

    Quote : First I screwed in the FL die. I then put the handle all the way down, so that the shellholder would be all the way to the top. I then proceeded to screw it down 1/2 turn more so that the shell holder was hitting rather hard on the base of the die. I then lubed a case and ran it through.

    After you ran the first case through and found it wouldn't chamber you screwed the die down another half turn right ? Next step lower the handle without a case in the shellholder and let it come to rest against the die but only under it's own weight . From that point if you apply some downward pressure on the press handle you should be able to feel it CAM over centre and lock down in a slightly lower position than it reached under it's own weight . This is the same point that the handle would reach if you lowered it without a die screwed in . It should only require a few pounds of pressure to get the handle to cam over .
    If the above procedure sounds like what you have already done then your problem is likely with the die or shellholder . Are they from the same manufacturer ? If so your next move is to either shorten the die as described by Kirby or get a replacement under warranty . Sounds like it may have been manufactured outside correct tolerance . [​IMG]
     
  11. fletch2000

    fletch2000 New Member

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    Remingtonman, I know this thread is old but did you ever get this resolved? It occured to me your problem could be that your expanderball is coming into contact with the base of the casing (on the inside). This would prevent the casing from going all the way up into the die. Back the expander assembly all the way out and try it!

    Just a thought, Fletch

    Just
     
  12. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Just to throw a little confusion into the situation, if you have not got it worked out try this.

    Sometimes you resize too much and push out the edge of the shoulder and that causes it not to chamber. I never start with the die set to "cam over". Start high and work down. Too much resizing (ie pushing the shoulder back too far) is not good either.

    Back the die up and then take a candle and smoke the case neck and shoulder. This allows you to see exact point of contact on the neck and shoulder.

    Start sizing and moving the die down a half turn at a time until you can see inital shoulder contact on the case with the smoking.

    At this point it helps to have a specially made bump guage, RCBS case mike or stoney point tool to measure the shoulder to base length. Super easy to measure inital unfired length, fired and then what you need to chamber.

    It only takes .001 shoulder setback to chamber once you have it set.

    Redding makes a set of competion shellholders that are .002 increments that allows you to bump the shoulder in .002 increments without ever changing the die setup. Cost is $35.

    BH
     
  13. McDoone

    McDoone Guest

    I'm not necessarily admitting to this one myself, but is it possible that the bottom of the handle on your press may be projecting through and contacting the bench before it reaches the end of it's stroke?
    This can hapen with one brand of press. Causes some real inconsistancies with the LOA, also.
    Real easy to fix, you just cut some clearance into the wood.
    Real easy to confirm, you just check for the depression in the wood below the handle.
    (At this point, you should try not to put a forehead sized depression in the drywall beside the bench. It is possible to avoid this step, but quite difficult.)
    If this is happening, you do not get enough leverage to operate the press for full length sizing, except with very small cartridges.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    My sugestion is to have about .005" machined of of the bottom of the die. I have done several of these to solve the problem of not being able to bump the sholder back. Then you do not have to abuse the press by bumping the shell holder so hard.