Lightweight Long Range Rifle

[PredatorSlayer]

Are we here to discuss calibers, bullets etc, or am i in the wrong forum, because it feels like some kind of national grammar exam, forum for learning proper grammar? I do make mistakes (for sure i know the difference between except and accept, made that mistake by typing to fast). My English for a non native English speaker is quite decent. My grammar could be better, and is actually better when i take a bit more time when typing. I'm quite sure my grammar is better than most of the people who lives in South, I'm quite sure you know what i'm talking about (hoowdaayyy).
Yeah, as you can tell, I'm not "local", i'm from Norway, you probably know a bit about it. The Best Country in the WORLD statistically (education, life quality, etc)... not self proclaimed.

By the way, to me it is kind of strange that The Nobodies (most of old schoolers) bashes 6.5 and such, yet one of the best ever US Army snipers Nick Irving, right after shooting 6.5 was pretty much speechless. He was like "WOW, can you imagine if we had this?!?! This is stunning". If i'm not mistaken, US snipers are switching to 6.5. Of course different application and what not, but then i can also kind of laugh when people hunt elk with 338 lapuas etc, because as far as i know, it is good cartridge for anti military vehicles (with armor piercing rounds).

My logic is simple, apply some wisdom of elderly, add new tech, and its best of both worlds. Yet old schoolers only see one way, most of them are ONE-DIMENSIONAL, and narrow minded (can clearly see in most posts). Its like pro basketball players from 60s, 70s and 80s, saying they would beat todays players. Nah man, todays pro players are bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled. Same applies to shooting and hunting, especially at ranges over 300-400. Most old schoolers above that range can't hit a side of the barn, while folks with 7mms, 6.5s, 243 are quite accurate (1 moa or so) even at 800-1000 and above. I would not be surprised that more animals are lost by shooters shooting bigger calibers (recoil, and not being accurate), than lighter calibers, because even with 243, put a good bullet at decent ranges into the lungs of an elk, and its going down.

Anyways, it is strange how even after i said discussion is over, and said MY BAD, some guys still has something to say, and derail this thread, contributing literally zero to this discussion and only creating fuss and drama. Admins should ban these commentators for a week or so. Like, literally, what the F language has something to do with this topic? While, what i provided is straight scientific facts and is very informative. Literally, for thread creators needs, nothing above 280ai is needed. Even 243 and 115vlds running hot fps, at high elevation, will kill an elk up to 600 yards (on impact maintains 2200-2400 fps and 1400-1500 of energy), period. Can plink steel to 1200 easily. Like Obama said, I'm out, (lets add a bit of Trumpster) and let's make shooters of America greaaattt agaiiinnn!!

Haha - well said. Its like you are my brother from another mother - we share much of the same sentiments. Also - your grammar is better than most of us on here. Good to have you as part of the forum!

 

[memtb]

thats a valid point - if we aren't talking long range, then we eliminate almost everything but poor marksmanship or shooter judgement. I don't think large calibers compensate for those things.

I would like to make, what I believe is a valid point, and then exit this "fruitless" debate.

Given that the shooter is an expert marksman, has and properly uses all of the tools at his disposal.....the shooter cannot know, beyond all certainly, that the animal will not move just as the shooter makes the shot. While the bullets impact placement may only be several inches away from the intended placement, it can be a critical "several inches". It is at this time, especially with smaller calibers at extended ranges....that the larger, more powerful cartridges, can (not guaranteed) produce a kill or at the very least provide an injury severe enough that the animal may be harvested! I might add, and it is "duly noted" and accepted..... that a severely misplaced shot cannot be compensated for by any common, shoulder fired, hunting firearm. However, a bullet from a larger caliber, with a higher mass projectile, may, provide a kill with the marginal shot placement.....where a lesser cartridge "may not"!

Obviously, this concept can be carried to extremes. Just as making shots on game animals at extended ranges, with marginal cartridges.....just for "bragging rights"!

Many hunters/shooters prefer to carry that small insurance policy when hunting big game!

Tirade over, memtb

 

[snowypeakoutdoors]

thinair...I thought we were here to discuss calibers, bullets, etc as well until you started talking about how well learned you are and then talked about how brilliant your family is and your comment was "drop the mic" end of discussion...all while being rude and condescending to others. Now you want to ban members who retort such things? Pretty ironic I would say. I already contributed to this thread prior to your statements.
As far as your opinions, you are not wrong in the fact that "even 243 and 115vlds" will kill elk...Of course they will. So will a 22lr if you hit them in the right place. Bottom line though, is that the bigger, higher energy cartridges are more forgiving than the smaller ones and that they definitely cause more damage. No, nothing bigger than a 280ai is "needed" but there is certainly nothing wrong with more. I prefer more, but hey what do I know right? I would like to see your statistical analysis of lost animals shot with bigger calibers at long range, as well as the figures you have accumulated about old schoolers not being able to hit the broad side of the barn vs "folks with 7mms, 6.5s, and 243s." Other mitigating factors are just as important. For instance, I can shoot my Sako TRG42 more accurately at any range than I can my Savage Axis in 243...as well as stay on target with it. How is that possible?

 

[Litehiker]

OK, so:
1. Light weight hunting rifles that have "short" actions like my 6.5 PRC Browning X- Bolt save weight with that smaller action length.

2. Those short action rifles need cartridges with good ballistics and good power to humanely take big game.
To me the 6.5 CM is the beginning of the big game cartridge ladder with others like the.308 Win. and on up to the 6.5 PRC, to name a few, which fit those short actions.
Not all those short cartridges have the best trajectories but at least some, like the .308, have "decent" trajectories up to say, 600 yards which is a long shot for any big game.

As I've mentioned, my choice is the 6.5 PRC but other short cartridges work well too. Take your cue from results you have seen.

Eric B.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Litehiker,

If you're talking short action to save weight, you can get there with a steel Weatherby Mark V six lug action. Just the action, and I think the trigger was still installed, mine weighed twenty-six ounces. It was designed around the .30-06 so the bolt face is made for cases with a .470" rim. And since it was designed around the .30-06 one can go with a .25-06, .270 or .280.

 

[ATH]

Are we here to discuss calibers, bullets etc, or am i in the wrong forum, because it feels like some kind of national grammar exam, forum for learning proper grammar? I do make mistakes (for sure i know the difference between except and accept, made that mistake by typing to fast). My English for a non native English speaker is quite decent. My grammar could be better, and is actually better when i take a bit more time when typing. I'm quite sure my grammar is better than most of the people who lives in South, I'm quite sure you know what i'm talking about (hoowdaayyy).
Yeah, as you can tell, I'm not "local", i'm from Norway, you probably know a bit about it. The Best Country in the WORLD statistically (education, life quality, etc)... not self proclaimed.

By the way, to me it is kind of strange that The Nobodies (most of old schoolers) bashes 6.5 and such, yet one of the best ever US Army snipers Nick Irving, right after shooting 6.5 was pretty much speechless. He was like "WOW, can you imagine if we had this?!?! This is stunning". If i'm not mistaken, US snipers are switching to 6.5. Of course different application and what not, but then i can also kind of laugh when people hunt elk with 338 lapuas etc, because as far as i know, it is good cartridge for anti military vehicles (with armor piercing rounds).

My logic is simple, apply some wisdom of elderly, add new tech, and its best of both worlds. Yet old schoolers only see one way, most of them are ONE-DIMENSIONAL, and narrow minded (can clearly see in most posts). Its like pro basketball players from 60s, 70s and 80s, saying they would beat todays players. Nah man, todays pro players are bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled. Same applies to shooting and hunting, especially at ranges over 300-400. Most old schoolers above that range can't hit a side of the barn, while folks with 7mms, 6.5s, 243 are quite accurate (1 moa or so) even at 800-1000 and above. I would not be surprised that more animals are lost by shooters shooting bigger calibers (recoil, and not being accurate), than lighter calibers, because even with 243, put a good bullet at decent ranges into the lungs of an elk, and its going down.

Anyways, it is strange how even after i said discussion is over, and said MY BAD, some guys still has something to say, and derail this thread, contributing literally zero to this discussion and only creating fuss and drama. Admins should ban these commentators for a week or so. Like, literally, what the F language has something to do with this topic? While, what i provided is straight scientific facts and is very informative. Literally, for thread creators needs, nothing above 280ai is needed. Even 243 and 115vlds running hot fps, at high elevation, will kill an elk up to 600 yards (on impact maintains 2200-2400 fps and 1400-1500 of energy), period. Can plink steel to 1200 easily. Like Obama said, I'm out, (lets add a bit of Trumpster) and let's make shooters of America greaaattt agaiiinnn!!

How many elk have you personally killed at 600 or more yards, and which cartridges were used?

My 338 Edge is only a hair less accurate than my 21lb F-class 284Win and I've taken 3rd in a 2000 yard round competition with it. Whole lot of people shooting nice groups far smaller than "broad side of barn" with 30+ calibers.

Someone saying people shooting large rounds aren't accurate smells like inexperience and arrogance, not "fact".

 

[Rich Coyle]

Absolutely! My .375-416 Rem Mag fires under an inch at 300 yards. Did 2 7/8" at 500.

 

[Litehiker]

Yeah, a lot of long range trophies were won at Camp Perry back in the day with the .300 Win mag. Carlos hatcheck was one of them - before he went off to Vietnam and became the long range legend "White Feather".

Eric B.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

How many elk have you personally killed at 600 or more yards, and which cartridges were used?

My 338 Edge is only a hair less accurate than my 21lb F-class 284Win and I've taken 3rd in a 2000 yard round competition with it. Whole lot of people shooting nice groups far smaller than "broad side of barn" with 30+ calibers.

Someone saying people shooting large rounds aren't accurate smells like inexperience and arrogance, not "fact".

i think I get his point. With some exceptions, most people shoot low recoiling rounds better. There are only a handful of guys that shoot 300's and 338's without a muzzle brake for a reason. Maybe you don't have a brake on your edge, but my guess is you do. The noise from a braked rifle can cause more of a flinch than recoil. Therefore, premium powders and bullets available nowadays give people the option to be effective at long range with lesser calibers - that is just a fact. I think you shoot whatever you want. I have killed several elk with my sendero sfII 25-06 out to 650 yards with 115gr vlds. I have seen them drop out to 700 yards with 6mm creedmoors and 105gr bergers and 108 gr eldms - like their legs came out from under them DRT. Shrug...shoot whatever you want to, but the big guns aren't a must have anymore for elk. I dumped my 300 rum, 300wby and 325 wsm over the last year (none of them were braked, I took it like a man lol) in favor of a 270 wsm and 6.5 prc because I didnt see a difference in effectiveness out to 1000 yards. If you are shooting them past that, which several people on here are capable of, I can see the need for an edge or lapua, or cheytac or bmg.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Funny thing, my ONLY gun with a brake is my 338-416 Rigby Improved.
I have Sendero based rifles in 264, 270 Bee, 300WM, 338WM & Edge. None are braked.
I have several sporters in multiple 300WM, 338WM, 264WM, then switch barrel sporters in 340 Bee, 375 Bee and 416 Rigby.
Don't see the need for brakes.
Even my 505 Gibbs had no brake, it really needed one. Recoil was vicious.

The trick to shooting big recoiling rifles is stock fit and really good recoil pads, I swear by Pachmeyer Decellerators and the odd mercury recoil reducer.

Cheers.

 

[Alan Griffith]

It would be easy enough to build a LW LR rig. The lighter one goes, typically, the more expensive it gets. Here is my 8.2 lb rig in 6.5x57 BR (8x57 necked down with 30 deg blown out shoulder). Think 6.5PRC specs but in a .432" bolt face.

Rem 700 LA, trued and lightened.
26" # 3 fluted Hart barrel.
Two stage Timney
D'Arcy Echols Shrike stock (made by McMillan to D'Arcy's specs)
Talley LW
NF 2.5-10x32 with Velocity 600 reticle.

Running Barnes 127 LRX @ 3102, dropped a bull elk last Oct @ 810 yds
Running Nosler 142 LRAB @ 2950, dropped cow elk last Jan @ 300 yds and obtained my 1000 yd Milk Jug Challenge with it the month before.

Oh, and I run it suppressed with a TBAC 6.5mm 7" Ultra can.

Alan

 

[R.Morehouse]

I don't know if this would be something that would be considered....But.....If you were to drop a barreled action into an MPA folding chassis it would be easy to transport and the chassis is really well thought out ergonomically and they have a weight system that is easily adjusted that you would appreciate on those days you would like to bang some steel with friends....I couldn't be happier with mine in 300WSM..Give them a look...

Regards
Rick

 

[memtb]

Funny thing, my ONLY gun with a brake is my 338-416 Rigby Improved.
I have Sendero based rifles in 264, 270 Bee, 300WM, 338WM & Edge. None are braked.
I have several sporters in multiple 300WM, 338WM, 264WM, then switch barrel sporters in 340 Bee, 375 Bee and 416 Rigby.
Don't see the need for brakes.
Even my 505 Gibbs had no brake, it really needed one. Recoil was vicious.

The trick to shooting big recoiling rifles is stock fit and really good recoil pads, I swear by Pachmeyer Decellerators and the odd mercury recoil reducer.

Cheers.

MagnumManiac, My wife hates muzzle brakes! The stock on her rifle, was custom fit for her, and had a Pachmeyer Decelerator (Sporting Clays) installed. Without these two things being done.....I don't think that she'd be very comfortable sitting behind her sub (barely) 9 pound .338 WM.

Proper stock fit and a good recoil pad are paramount when shooting "kickers"! memtb

 

[MagnumManiac]

My one true purpose bought lightweight rifle is my Kimber Select 300WM, with sling, loaded and Leupold VX-III 3.5-10x40, It comes in at 8 1/4lbs.
I tried lightening it more, but just couldn't see where I could remove material without weakening the action. I have fluted the bolt body however.

I also bought a Kimber Super America in 338WM, not knowing it was a full lb heavier than the select.
(Hard to tell in the shop which rifle was heavier).

Light rifles have a place, but it seems Kimber, Cooper and Winchester are the only companies trying to sell light minded rifles.
All of my Win EW's come in a tad over 7lbs bare. Another easily lightened action by fluting bolts and skeletonizing bolt handles.

Cheers.