Lead sled vs sandbags accuracy issues

[Nvhunter92]

Hello,

I've been looking around on this forum for quite awhile but just decided to register and hopefully get some advice. Ive got a tikka t3 lite in .25-06 that I've been struggling to shoot well, at first I thought it was the gun so I bought a leaf sled and developed a load that consistently shoots .6-1" at 100 yards. The problem is that when I shoot it without the lead sled my groups open up to around 1.5". I'm using sandbags upfront and a sandbag to support the rear of the rifle. My thinking is that the rifle is recoiling inconsistently without the lead sled and that's where the difference is. I feel very steady when I'm shooting with or without the lead sled. Does anybody have any tips or suggestions? Thanks

 

[Chorizo]

I have found the lead sled gives me uneven performance.

Think PEARL when you are shooting:

Parallax (make sure you head position is consistent and that all parallax is removed) This may be your single biggest issue causing your problems

Environment.... in this case wind

Angle ... not a factor on the range

Range...also not a facto

Level gun....could very much so be when shooting from a bag

 

[snookntarpon]

Try a different batch, brand of ammo.
Not a fan of led sleds. Changes the point of impact.

I have several types of 25-06 factory ammo. Let me know if you want to try a few different ones.

SnT

 

[Barrelnut]

I shoot a light weight hunting rifle in 25-06. Sometimes you have yo hold a lightweight rifle that recoils a little differently on the bench.

There is nothing wrong with using a sled, especially to develope loads. It takes some of the human error out and let's you see the performance of the load a little better. Problem is it's masking some of the rifles natural movements and some of the human movements that affect shooting off of the sled. This is probably what you are experiencing.

Sometimes you need to hold a light recoiling rifle differently than the "no hands on the forearm with on hand on a squeeze bag and the other on the trigger" method, you see so often on the web.

If you look at where the sled holds the forearm of the rifle and where the rifle rests on your bags, you may see a difference. The sled may be supporting the rifle further back on the rifle than where it lays on the bags. Little things like this can make a difference.

I would try holding the rifle on the bags in a more traditional manner. by holding the forearm. You will probably have to try a couple different methods before you find the one that works best from the bags, but once you do, I bet it shoots just as well from the bags as it does from the sled.

They these:
* Rest the rifle on the bags further back from the front of the rifle. You especially want to make sure the sling attachment on the forearm is not coming into contact with the bags during recoil. Also want to make sure the rear sling attachment is not touching the rear bag under recoil.
* Hold the forearm of the rifle. Allow the rifle to rest on the bag, but just back from the bag. slightly hold the forearm with some downward pressure. Be as consistent with it from shot to shot as possible. This will keep the rifle from rising off of the bag and torquing to the left, as usually happens with left hand shooters.
* Hold the rifle a little firmer at the back grip. Don't try to let the rifle free recoil, if that is what you are doing. Try to pull the rifle into your shoulder with about 2~3 lbs. of force. Be consistent. It is ok to kinda let a heavy rifle free recoil, but not a lighter hunting weight rifle like you have.
* Instead of holding the forearm. Try placing you left hand on the left side of the forearm. Try not to put downward pressure on the barrel, but you want to have some downward pressure on the forearm, so the rifle will not jump left on recoil.
* You can also try laying you left hand over the top of the scope. You would not believe how many successful shooters shoot this way. Just put some downward pressure on the scope with the left hand between the scope rings.
* Video youself from a forward angle like all the guys on Youtube. LOL. This way you can see how the rifle is reacting on the bags. It is this reaction of the rifle on the bags that is affecting your grouping. You just need to try a few things to get control of it.

Good luck.

 

[snookntarpon]

I have found the lead sled gives me uneven performance.

Think PEARL when you are shooting:

Parallax (make sure you head position is consistent and that all parallax is removed) This may be your single biggest issue causing your problems

Environment.... in this case wind

Angle ... not a factor on the range

Range...also not a facto

Level gun....could very much so be when shooting from a bag

PEARL. Clever. Where did that come from?

 

[Nvhunter92]

I shoot a light weight hunting rifle in 25-06. Sometimes you have yo hold a lightweight rifle that recoils a little differently on the bench.

There is nothing wrong with using a sled, especially to develope loads. It takes some of the human error out and let's you see the performance of the load a little better. Problem is it's masking some of the rifles natural movements and some of the human movements that affect shooting off of the sled. This is probably what you are experiencing.

Sometimes you need to hold a light recoiling rifle differently than the "no hands on the forearm with on hand on a squeeze bag and the other on the trigger" method, you see so often on the web.

If you look at where the sled holds the forearm of the rifle and where the rifle rests on your bags, you may see a difference. The sled may be supporting the rifle further back on the rifle than where it lays on the bags. Little things like this can make a difference.

I would try holding the rifle on the bags in a more traditional manner. by holding the forearm. You will probably have to try a couple different methods before you find the one that works best from the bags, but once you do, I bet it shoots just as well from the bags as it does from the sled.

They these:
* Rest the rifle on the bags further back from the front of the rifle. You especially want to make sure the sling attachment on the forearm is not coming into contact with the bags during recoil. Also want to make sure the rear sling attachment is not touching the rear bag under recoil.
* Hold the forearm of the rifle. Allow the rifle to rest on the bag, but just back from the bag. slightly hold the forearm with some downward pressure. Be as consistent with it from shot to shot as possible. This will keep the rifle from rising off of the bag and torquing to the left, as usually happens with left hand shooters.
* Hold the rifle a little firmer at the back grip. Don't try to let the rifle free recoil, if that is what you are doing. Try to pull the rifle into your shoulder with about 2~3 lbs. of force. Be consistent. It is ok to kinda let a heavy rifle free recoil, but not a lighter hunting weight rifle like you have.
* Instead of holding the forearm. Try placing you left hand on the left side of the forearm. Try not to put downward pressure on the barrel, but you want to have some downward pressure on the forearm, so the rifle will not jump left on recoil.
* You can also try laying you left hand over the top of the scope. You would not believe how many successful shooters shoot this way. Just put some downward pressure on the scope with the left hand between the scope rings.
* Video youself from a forward angle like all the guys on Youtube. LOL. This way you can see how the rifle is reacting on the bags. It is this reaction of the rifle on the bags that is affecting your grouping. You just need to try a few things to get control of it.

Good luck.

Barrelnut,

Thanks for the tips! I definetly think it has something to do with a lightweight rifle and my shooting form. I have been shooting it with my left hand (I'm a right handed shooter) on my squeeze bag and am very stable but when I shoot the rifle seems to recoil with inconsistent movements. I will try holding the forearm with some light downward pressure next time I go out. Will shooting prone eliminate the need to hold the forearm because my body will be more square behind the rifle? The benches where I shoot have pretty shallow "cutouts" for you to get against the table so I end up with my shoulders facing more towards 1-2 O clock in relation to the target rather than square behind the gun. I appreciate your help

 

[Gene]

Get youself a good quality windage front rest. A sand bag alone is much too inconsistent.

 

[J E Custom]

Hello,

I've been looking around on this forum for quite awhile but just decided to register and hopefully get some advice. Ive got a tikka t3 lite in .25-06 that I've been struggling to shoot well, at first I thought it was the gun so I bought a leaf sled and developed a load that consistently shoots .6-1" at 100 yards. The problem is that when I shoot it without the lead sled my groups open up to around 1.5". I'm using sandbags upfront and a sandbag to support the rear of the rifle. My thinking is that the rifle is recoiling inconsistently without the lead sled and that's where the difference is. I feel very steady when I'm shooting with or without the lead sled. Does anybody have any tips or suggestions? Thanks

Lead sleds have there place. I like them when testing because they are steady and consistent.

Sand bags are more like hunting conditions and are easier to use.

If you don't get consistent results with ether method, it is because your not holding or positioning the rifle the same.

some people try to muscle the rifle into battery, it should be at rest with either system in order to get good results.

If the results are different , look where you are placing the fore arm of the stock and also your hands. (They should be the same place).

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[Barrelnut]

Will shooting prone eliminate the need to hold the forearm because my body will be more square behind the rifle?

It may well eliminate it. Prone changes a lot of things. It takes out a huge amount of upper body movement versus shooting from a seated position. The shoulder placement on the butt stock is different too, the shoulder usually rides a little higher on the butt and at a more forward angle, this can lessen muzzle jump quite a bit. If you are using a bipod on a softer dirt surface (wood and concrete benches have hard surfaces) you can dig the bipod in a bit and lean into it a bit, this can help stop muzzle rise and the tendency of the barrel to torque left.

JE's tip was a good one too about not muscling the rifle into position. The rifle should kinda point naturally on target while it is at rest. You shouldn't be pulling or pushing left or right on the front or back of the rifle.

 

[Mikecr]

It does no good to trick a gun into bench results, only to see it all fall apart in the field.
Amazing how much rests & holds can affect results, with the slightest of changes.
I have a 16.5lb BR gun that was developed on 'heavy' sand in the bags. Now, with any other filler the gun hates me. It's not a field gun so it's not a problem, but an example. Where I set my rest stop makes a difference. Any pressure points, a thumb on the action tang or bolt, trigger guard pressure, vary shouldering or cheek weld, forearm pulls, rests out of alignment,, = opened groups.
So with a hunting gun, how much in all that is lead sled matched with field shooting conditions?

I use a bench rest & rear sandbag for hot grouping. That is free recoil firing.
But I cold bore load develop off the rest as I use in the field (Harris bipod in the dirt). And I do not shoulder a gun here or in the field. All my rifles are used as single shot, and I keep my ammo in pants pockets(even during load development), so that it is always the same temperature (just a tip).

 

[Nvhunter92]

I feel like benchrest shooting does have a place in hunting rifles and I don't think I'm "tricking" the gun into doing anything. I think that by using a lead sled I'm eliminating myself from the equation as much as I can to test my rifle and my handloads. If I can shoot .7" groups from a lead sled then I know the rifle and load is capable of doing so regardless of shooting position...it tells me that the difference between my .7" groups from the lead sled and my 1.5" groups from sand bags has something to do with me and my form. I agree that if a guy only shot his hunting rifle from a bench and sand bags then threw a bipod on and went hunting without testing his gear it would provide sub par results. I know what my gun is capable of, I want to better my shooting form (or whatever it may be) so I can close the gap between what my rifle is capable of and what I'm capable of.

 

[Mikecr]

I feel like benchrest shooting does have a place in hunting rifles

Only in a very limited sense.

I think that by using a lead sled I'm eliminating myself from the equation

And, adding a lead sled to the equation.

If I can shoot .7" groups from a lead sled then I know the rifle and load is capable of doing so regardless of shooting position

That capability is proving very limited.

it tells me that the difference between my .7" groups from the lead sled and my 1.5" groups from sand bags has something to do with me and my form.

Or, that shooting off different resting than developed with leaves you chasing your tail..

 

[Nvhunter92]

I think you are totally misunderstanding the question I originally asked. I feel like a guy would be a fool to buy a hunting rifle and never shoot it from a bench to determine which ammo shoots well out of it as well as the ballistics while removing the human error as much as possible. There are many people who can shoot incredible accurate off sandbags...I'm not one of them right now so in order to test my equipment I needed to get a lead sled. If you had understood my question you would realize that I'm not upset that the gun isn't performing, I'm simply looking for advice to help me improve my form and technique. I fully expect my groups to open up as I move from lead sled to sand bags to prone to whatever other field position... but I would like to get better at bench shooting before I move on.

 

[J E Custom]

Lead sleds have there place. I like them when testing because they are steady and consistent.

Just to add to this, A good lead sled (length adjustable also)is the closest thing to a machine rest that is practical, and if used correctly can help in load development and Chronographing to find out what the rifle is capable of. Sand bags are cheaper and easier to use but are not as repeatable because the rifles position changes as you shoot.

Where lots of people go wrong with ether of these two systems is they place the bags/rest two far out on the forearm. The front should rest on the stock near the front bedding screw for the least effect on the stock loading and best consistency. At the range I see lots of people resting the stock at or near the tip of the forearm and some even resting on the barrel it's self. Some shoot with a bag under the but stock and some don't. to find out what the rifle/load is capable of you need to have both ends of the stock supported. After that shoot it the way you would on hunts and practice improving you position.

After all testing is done and you are satisfied with the accuracy/consistency then it is time to start shooting as close to the hunting conditions possible. If you shoot/hunt offhand, then practice this way (You already know how well the rifle shoots under near perfect conditions), If you shoot prone,
practice prone. if you hunt out of a stand, set the rest as near to the same location as your range supports were.

By pods are very popular on this site and good for hunting but you must develop certain procedures
to make them consistent also. By pods are located in the same spot on the stock making them consistent "BUT" must be loaded by pushing the rifle forward keeping the stock from contacting the barrel. This is where lots of practice comes in and muscle memory takes over to be consistent.

No one method is perfectly repeatable so pick the one that is best for you and practice setting up the same way every time and your results will be better.

J E CUSTOM