Knight Mountaineer vs Remington UML

[USMCK9]

Just a couple questions, are you over charging the rifle? What possible reason do you think that the primers are pushing out of the case? Any photos of the cases and destroyed primers?

I was supposed to set one up today, but 40mph winds and blinding snow stopped the owner from traveling today. He'll try again before leaving the area.

200 gr of 50/50 Triple 7 as prescribed by Remington, behind the included Premier Accutip (Barnes) 250gr Sabot. I also tried the 275 gr Federal Premier BOR Lock Sabots. Same results. This one has got me stumped. I've used T17 lube to swab the barrel and T17 bore cleaner to clean it out. The cases are factory new, and I've shot in 55 degree and 20 degree weather.

New to this forum, how do I include pictures ?

 

[USMCK9]

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[ENCORE]

200 gr of 50/50 Triple 7 as prescribed by Remington, behind the included Premier Accutip (Barnes) 250gr Sabot. I also tried the 275 gr Federal Premier BOR Lock Sabots. Same results. This one has got me stumped. I've used T17 lube to swab the barrel and T17 bore cleaner to clean it out. The cases are factory new, and I've shot in 55 degree and 20 degree weather.

New to this forum, how do I include pictures ?

Probably the easiest way is buy using photo bucket to post photos.

I'd back down the charge, maybe use 3 T7M pellets to 180grs equivalent. I've tried shooting Barnes from my Ultimate and can't get them to group. Some, including myself, don't believe the Barnes obturate enough in the sabots, therefore not spinning equally with the sabot. Jury is still out on that.

I use strictly Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine myself. VERY LIGHTLY.... damp patch, both sides between shots. I also use it to clean.

It would surprise me if the Federal would hold up to the pressures generated when using a max charge.

If the weather settles down and the owner can get here, I'll be giving one a complete go over.

 

[USMCK9]

Thank you for the insight.

I will order some of Butch's Bore Shine.

What Bullet or Sabot would be best for this situation? I bought this gun specifically to shoot longer ranges, i.e. 300yds, so it's aggravating to have to settle for less performance than expected.

I also have adopted the theory you mentioned about doubting that the bullet is spinning the same rate as the sabot, hence why I purchased the Federal Premium with "B.O.R." Lock technology.

Any info is helpful.

 

[ENCORE]

Thank you for the insight.

I will order some of Butch's Bore Shine.

What Bullet or Sabot would be best for this situation? I bought this gun specifically to shoot longer ranges, i.e. 300yds, so it's aggravating to have to settle for less performance than expected.

I also have adopted the theory you mentioned about doubting that the bullet is spinning the same rate as the sabot, hence why I purchased the Federal Premium with "B.O.R." Lock technology.

Any info is helpful.

I'm shooting the Ultimate Firearms Inc. BP Xpress, which the patented ignition system is used by Remington for their rifle (RU). I've sent about 500 rounds through mine and without question to date, the 300gr "Whitetail Medicine" bullet sold by UF has grouped the best. I am very partial to Barnes, having shot them for years, yet I can not get them to group at 300yds, using the 290gr T-EZ flat base bullet. I tried the Parker 300gr BE and didn't like the groups.... however...... I was using the supplied XMark Pro trigger at the time, which I absolutely hated. I now have a Timney 512 on it. I will attempt the 300gr BE again. I shot 15 of the 275gr BE's, but past 200yds they opened up. I tried the 300gr Scorpion PT Gold bullets, worked with Harvester for over a month with different sabots, and they never would shoot past 200yds. I've shot the 300gr SST from two different 50 count bulk boxes, knurled and not knurled, which won't group at tight as the WM bullet, which most consider the same bullet only with a different color tip..... using the identical sabot with each bullet, the H5045LB that comes with the WM bullets.

With the 300gr Whitetail Medicine bullet, I've punched a single enlarged hole at 100yds. I've shot 1.650" groups at 300yds with them when testing the 300gr SST and 3 1/4" groups at 400yds.

The day I was trying to get the 300gr SST bullets to group at 300yds, I couldn't get them to group to my expectations. After I hung a new target, I shot 3 more rounds, didn't like them and then shot 4 WM bullets. Target below:



This photo is of a 400yd - 5 shot target with the WM bullet:



The RU that I've been asked to setup for a guy, may or may not shoot good 300yd groups. The owner would like MOA groups and I'll be happy to setup and shoot his rifle. He thought everything would be ready, as he's vacationing at his cabin in the area. However the Leupold VX3, 4.5-14 he ordered with a one piece base and rings, didn't show up before he left home. If the weather allows, his plan is to at least drop off the rifle and all the components, then mail me the scope. He works a crazy amount of hours, six days a week and was hoping I'd help him. It'll be fun and a learning experience. I will share what I learn, post targets and loads.

 

[Elite Muzzleloader]

Since you guys are shooting saboted loads have you tried knurling the bullet slightly just enough to mark it up? My theory on this is the bullet in a sense locks onto the sabot which makes the bullet sabot combo lock onto the rifling giving the bullet a complete spin. (Hope that makes sense).

See if that shows better results.

 

[jmeier1981]

Well according to this article it sounds like I would be better off just keeping the Mountaineer and trying it first. According to Toby the Mountaineer is a better shooter and when shooting a max load of BH209 is pretty comparable to the RUM and 200g of T7 pellets. He even claims hes shot 150g of BH209 by volume, Id heard it could take 140g but he gives velocities for all the way up to 150g. of BH... Ill probably end up throwing a scope on the mountaineer and give it a whirl. Heres a link to the article all the info is about half way down

MLmaxrange2 - NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

Then I suppose if its not up to snuff start looking at having a smokeless built.

Does anyone have any experience with Leupold VX-R scopes? I like the lighted reticle and the cost just not sure how the optics are or how well it tracks. Id like to get a CDS model and dial up yardages for longer shots. My other choice was a Vortex Viper HS any idea which would have better optics or tracking???

 

[ENCORE]

Picked up the RU late this afternoon, after I drove 400 miles round to pick up another rifle for myself I had to drive right by the area where the RU owner was, so "two birds, one stone".

What ever Remington puts in those barrels after manufacturing is a SOB to get out. I worked on it for about 20 minutes and decided to wait until tomorrow to finish. He told me that Cabela's mailed his scope, so when he gets home, he'll mail that and I can get started.

Scopes........ I have the VX6, 3-18 with the CDS turret and firedot. Love it!

 

[pooldoc]

Pooldoc what you said about the700ml is all bull

mine shoot very well

Let me give you a little history on the Remington Model 700 Muzzleloader I referred to in my post. It was introduced in 1996 in .50 and .54 Cal and a .45 Cal was introduced in 2000. Production on the .54 ended in 2001 and the .45 & .50 were discontinued in 2004. When introduced they used a #11 percussion cap for ignition and at some point in time conversion kits to allow them to use 209 primers became available. Not sure whether Remington ever produced them with a 209 system. In 1996 I had 3 friends who each purchased a 700 in .54 Cal to use on a western primitive weapons elk hunt. Not being involved in muzzleloaders at that time I don't know what powder or bullets they were using. What I do know is that neither they nor several local blackpowder shooters who assisted them, were able to achieve an acceptable accuracy level with them and Remington and their local dealer bought them all back. To the best of my knowledge that problem did not show up in the .45 or .50. My comments were limited to the .54. In the last 18 years we have all learned a great deal more about inline muzzleloaders and thanks to the internet we can all share in that knowledge. If you still think my comment was BS I can put you in touch with at least one of those buyers who can confirm the facts. No need to get your shorts in a wad.
.

 

[ENCORE]

I picked up a nice .54

 

[Nomosendero]

Let me give you a little history on the Remington Model 700 Muzzleloader I referred to in my post. It was introduced in 1996 in .50 and .54 Cal and a .45 Cal was introduced in 2000. Production on the .54 ended in 2001 and the .45 & .50 were discontinued in 2004. When introduced they used a #11 percussion cap for ignition and at some point in time conversion kits to allow them to use 209 primers became available. Not sure whether Remington ever produced them with a 209 system. In 1996 I had 3 friends who each purchased a 700 in .54 Cal to use on a western primitive weapons elk hunt. Not being involved in muzzleloaders at that time I don't know what powder or bullets they were using. What I do know is that neither they nor several local blackpowder shooters who assisted them, were able to achieve an acceptable accuracy level with them and Remington and their local dealer bought them all back. To the best of my knowledge that problem did not show up in the .45 or .50. My comments were limited to the .54. In the last 18 years we have all learned a great deal more about inline muzzleloaders and thanks to the internet we can all share in that knowledge. If you still think my comment was BS I can put you in touch with at least one of those buyers who can confirm the facts. No need to get your shorts in a wad.
.

I appreciate you clearing that up, my experience is with 2 of the .50's, both very accurate. My Wife still uses one, but I have been talking to her about updating to a new rifle (not sure which one yet) with 209's and Blackhorn. She took a good 4x4 WT last fall & doesn't seem worried.

 

[ENCORE]

Picked up the RU late this afternoon, after I drove 400 miles round to pick up another rifle for myself I had to drive right by the area where the RU owner was, so "two birds, one stone".

What ever Remington puts in those barrels after manufacturing is a SOB to get out. I worked on it for about 20 minutes and decided to wait until tomorrow to finish. He told me that Cabela's mailed his scope, so when he gets home, he'll mail that and I can get started.

Scopes........ I have the VX6, 3-18 with the CDS turret and firedot. Love it!

The RU is being sent back to Remington for a new barrel........

 

[Jdear]

Encore, can you elaborate on the issue with the barrel? I purchased a Remington Ultimate before Christmas and would like to know what to look for regarding the barrels. I have shot my only at 50 yards so I could hunt with it. It shot one hole from that distance with Hornady Xtp mags.

 

[ENCORE]

Encore, can you elaborate on the issue with the barrel? I purchased a Remington Ultimate before Christmas and would like to know what to look for regarding the barrels. I have shot my only at 50 yards so I could hunt with it. It shot one hole from that distance with Hornady Xtp mags.

I believe the rifle I was to set up for the owner, just plain and simple has a bad barrel. I've heard from a fairly reliable source that Remington had a bad run of barrels and this may be one of them. The good news, Remington will take care of the problem. An inconvenience to the owner, but at least its not hunting season.

I scoped the barrel and it was full of what looked like Ziebart coating, also showing something like contamination of something. I was very concerned with that but, decided to scrub the barrel...... THAT turned into a 5 hour fruitless attempt over 3 days. I used everything except some of the most toxic solutions, which removed the majority of the gunk. Mineral spirits wouldn't touch it, then I used NAPA Premium De-greaser also. However it did not remove it all in the corners of the lands and groves. OF COURSE THE STOCK WAS NOT ON THE BARREL BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM. I didn't want that stock near anything that could harm it.

When my "labor of love" reached its limit, it was obvious something was seriously wrong with the barrel. It appears to have tooling chatter. A lot of it. I remember running a broach machine during co-op in "69", my first thought was of a broach skipping or chattering. It was time to contact Remington about the condition of the barrel......

After explaining the condition of the barrel to Remington and what I had done, the rep indicated that it was a bad barrel, and the owner needed to return it to Remington. Of course completely paid for by Remington. The owner needs to make the arrangements and I'll help him any way I can. He lives 200 miles from me but, we'll get it taken care of.

I have a few photos of the barrel, which the owner WANTS shared.

UNFIRED, NEW FROM THE BOX photo of the inside of the barrel:






After all the different solvents, five (5) hours of scrubbing, the following is the last photo I took before calling Remington. If you look closely where the lands and groves meet, you can still see part of the remaining substance that was so hard to remove. Notice what appears to be tooling chattering marks: