Just Conversation about Rifle Accuracy

[Greyfox]

Thats funny Greyfox, My LRH is also a 6.5-284 and that rifle is seriously more accurate than I am. and while I am not a great shot at long range or even at 200 it will shoot as tight as I can hold. I just have a 4-16x42 Sightron on it, which is plenty for what I need it to do. Does barrel heat effect your groups? Mine just keeps going I stopped at 10 but it would not throw one other than the one I threw myself.

Cfvickers, I actually won the rifle at a long range competitive event. I was pleasntly surprised at the performance. I have also found that not only the the barrel maintain its accuracy with multiple shots ,its cold bore accuracy assuming a fouled bore is excellent. The rifle will consistently deliver.25-.5 moa at 500 yards. I did do a barrel break in and opened the barrel channel to relieve contact poins tbefore all testing.

 

[cfvickers]

Cfvickers, I actually won the rifle at a long range competitive event. I was pleasntly surprised at the performance. I have also found that not only the the barrel maintain its accuracy with multiple shots ,its cold bore accuracy assuming a fouled bore is excellent. The rifle will consistently deliver.25-.5 moa at 500 yards. I did do a barrel break in and opened the barrel channel to relieve contact poins tbefore all testing.

Would you explain "Opened the barrel channel"? I looked up the break in procedure on line for one of the aftermarket barrel manufacturers and used that. I think it was shilen's. But it worked. I agree the barrel must be fouled. Mine is shooting the same way, but I have only tested it to 200 yards. Eventually I hope to stretch it out. Oh if you are saying you 0pened the barrel channel in the stock, I did that as well. That accustock confused me a bit at first but once I figured it out it was easily repeatable.

 

[Mikecr]

I don't see a need to group guns into different classes(facotry, semi-custom, custom). While these may indicate potential to some(not me), they are meaningless factors w/regard to a measure of accuracy capabilties.
'Accuracy' takes only one shot to define. It is not 'grouping', but furthest shot to center of mark.
And hunting rifles certainly must define accuracy with single cold bore shots to center of mark.

You could have a 1.5moa grouping gun, that is <1/4moa of cold bore accuracy, and a 1/4moa grouping gun that could not be relied on for 1.5moa of cold bore accuracy.
MOA to range further defines real world capabilities. Type of rifle means nothing, and with LRH, grouping means nothing.

 

[J E Custom]

Whether you agree or disagree with testing At 100 yards does not matter it is what you get
with the results for what you intend to do with the rifle.

This is a long range hunting site and most members need a rifle that will shoot well beyond
500 yards.

This will sound contradictory but I test all rifles @ 100 yards initially. then to develop drop
charts, zeros, bullet performance and long range accuracy I move to longer ranges.

The reason "I" test at 100 yards is= consistency, velocity, accuracy, function, pressures,
extraction with different loads, recoil and many other things that can be affected at longer
distances by the shooter,altitude,temperature,wind, shooting position ETC.

No matter how far you can/intend to shoot the rifle should be tested at your max distance
it will be used. However A solid load should be tested before going to longer ranges.

I have seen great groups @ 100 yards that did not have good SD and at extended ranges
performed poorly.

So when I finish my 100 yard testing I am confident that it will perform well at long distances
and I am ready for the longer testing.

You can make a poorly built bullet shoot ok at 100 yards but it will let you down at the longer
ranges so a lot of the testing is to compare the 100 yard test to the 600+ yard tests.

So IMO You should do both short range and long range Testing for the best results.

Start with good componants, premium bullets with high ballistic coefficients, good loading
procedures and skill, a good chronograph and 100 yard testing then move 100 yards at a
time to the greatest distance required and you will save time and money and also you will
find the rifles limits and yours.

Nothing is a waste of time if it makes you and your rifle a better shooter.

This is a good thread and worth talking about.

Thanks Broz

J E CUSTOM

 

[AJ Peacock]

I don't see a need to group guns into different classes(facotry, semi-custom, custom). While these may indicate potential to some(not me), they are meaningless factors w/regard to a measure of accuracy capabilties.
'Accuracy' takes only one shot to define. It is not 'grouping', but furthest shot to center of mark.
And hunting rifles certainly must define accuracy with single cold bore shots to center of mark.

You could have a 1.5moa grouping gun, that is <1/4moa of cold bore accuracy, and a 1/4moa grouping gun that could not be relied on for 1.5moa of cold bore accuracy.
MOA to range further defines real world capabilities. Type of rifle means nothing, and with LRH, grouping means nothing.

I think it is important to document what 'adjustments' have been made to a rifle when we talk about it's accuracy. That way, readers of this forum don't think that an 'off the shelf' rifle will shoot at some particular accuracy level, when in fact the rifle in question might be factory chambered, but have a target trigger, McMillan Stock, professional bedding etc etc. I think these things are important, as can be seen by the posts that appear on a weekly basis "Most accurate factory rifle" or "First build, what is really needed." etc.

I personally don't care if a rifle is a custom or an off the shelf. If it will put it's first bullet where I want it, it's a fine rifle. I have a close friend that has some of the ugliest franken-guns you've ever seen, but every one of them shoot great. I've also seen beautiful custom rifles that wouldn't shoot worth spit.

AJ

 

[Greyfox]

Would you explain "Opened the barrel channel"? I looked up the break in procedure on line for one of the aftermarket barrel manufacturers and used that. I think it was shilen's. But it worked. I agree the barrel must be fouled. Mine is shooting the same way, but I have only tested it to 200 yards. Eventually I hope to stretch it out. Oh if you are saying you 0pened the barrel channel in the stock, I did that as well. That accustock confused me a bit at first but once I figured it out it was easily repeatable.

My Savage LRH's stock had barrel contact at the very end. I sanded it down so that the barrel was fully floated before I shot the rifle. I prefer fully floated barrels on my rifles. Otherwise,the accustock works very well. I used similar break in to the one you used. Good luck at the longer ranges!

 

[LouBoyd]

...
So IMO You should do both short range and long range Testing for the best results.
...
Nothing is a waste of time if it makes you and your rifle a better shooter.

In my opinion a rifle and it's shooter need to be considered as a system. It takes both to achieve good performance.

It's nice to know that a rifle can shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards and 6" groups at 1000 yards in calm whether, but if the shooter can't dope wind, determine range, and take into account the other parameters which affect first shot accuracy on animals in field conditions the accuracy of a superb rifle will be wasted. Some people do practice in field conditions with their hunting rifles, but too many don't. They may shoot some small groups from a bench and think they're good to go hunting then wonder why they get wounds and misses.

JECs statement that nothing is a waste of time if it makes you a better shooter is true, but
if you spend the time on the areas which don't need the most improving the gains will be small.
Target shooting is not just to improve skills. An equal reason is to learn limitations.

 

[brentc]

Brent, I bet you cut that young soldier some slack though. He has to start somewhere. My first 308 was the short action remington heavy fluted 26" barrel with that black kevlar stock, I still miss that gun. I think I was 14 when I saved up and oredered it. I bought the gun and my dad provided me with a scope. had some big bausch and lomb 6x24 x something on it which was good stuff at the time. 500.00 was a lot for glass at the time unless you were going german optics. all I ever fired was factory ammo but man that thing would shoot an inch with anything I put in it, again good for a 14 year old and factory ammo. I swore then I could shoot 1/4 inch groups with it, but I was full of it. But that started my love of rifles and shooting stuff way off (200 yards was long at the time to me)

I happen to cut soldiers slack every day, and I fully respect what they do. I was a young soldier once too and I still wear the uniform.

I'm just amused by the stories I hear that are constantly echoed from someone begind a gun counter that told them outlandish stories to make a sell. Anymore, I have to go to the gun counter with my BS meter cranked up and my hip boots pulled high because I'm sure the BS is coming.

 

[cfvickers]

My Savage LRH's stock had barrel contact at the very end. I sanded it down so that the barrel was fully floated before I shot the rifle. I prefer fully floated barrels on my rifles. Otherwise,the accustock works very well. I used similar break in to the one you used. Good luck at the longer ranges!

Sorry about the conversation within a conversation, I will try to curb it following this post.

Greyfox, that is what the third stock screw is for. you can adjust how your rifle sits in the stock by getting it where it needs to be and tightening the front lug down, I get the rear screw moderately tight, then the front again moderately tight then the middle screw down a little tighter so as not to pull the barrel down any further, then the rear all the way, and the front, and last the middle. I don't have a torque driver and I don't really know why, but I just know about where I want it and it works. I get it tight enough that it will not come loose at the very least. I watch how the barrel is sitting in the channel while I am doing this. I am assuming that if you have the newer accustock then it may be different and you may not be able to adjust the depth that the action sits in the stock, in which case you may need to remove some material to get it properly floated.

 

[Mikecr]

While range is a valid qualifier to rifle accuracy, I see no reason to assign range as a qualifier to LRH. For one, there is way more to long range HUNTING than shooting.

Long range hunting is a combination of strategy and preparations that extend shooter capabilities. This might bring a shooter to high percentage 500yd kills with a 223, or 1200yd kills with a 408.
The most challenging hunting I've engadged in so far is crow hunting with an airgun(without calling). Long range hunting here begins at very far distances, and ends with single shots ~50-100yds. Lot of preps, lot of strategy, lot of expense..
My airgun(capable of taking these shots) cost more than my centerfire hunting guns.

Anyway, hunting in any form, is NOT target shooting -at animals.

 

[Nimrod]

I tend to define a rifles accuracy by the average group size with its preferred load. I too could care less whether it is a factory or custom rifle as long as it shoots. When I get a new rifle I typically will buy a box of factory ammo, usually Federal blue box, if it won't shoot that into 1.5 minutes or so I usually consider it a re-barrel project or trade it off. I shot a group the other day with a new to me M70 7MM RM that went into about 3/8" at 100 yards after a fouling shot. Do I have a 1/3 minute gun? Who knows, but I think the potential is there so I have dies and brass on the way and we will see what it does. This gun is a stock wally-world special package gun with the trigger tuned and a bit of sanding to knock the high spots out of the barrel channel. The other LR candidate I'm currently working with is a 700 CDL in 7MM RUM. This one has been bedded and free floated, trigger tuned and a brake added with a re-crown in the process. It has fired 3 shot groups during load development ranging from 2.95" down to .809" at 200 yards. I suspect this rifle has a non concentric bore because it absolutely will not put the third shot into a group unless the barrel is completely cool. I think both of these rifles have potential and can help me develop my long range skills.

I do my load development at 200 yards because I have a really nice range at my disposal that has tall berms down both sides that tend to minimize the wind. When I find a load that does what I'm looking for I stop at that point and start shooting from field positions. The gun club I belong to has targets to 500 yards and I'm looking at another that has an 800 yard range. The problem is that they are both about 65 miles away in opposite directions so I'm not able to get to either one of them on a regular basis. I improvise by shooting at rocks, or home made steel plates, 10 or 15 minutes on my ATV from the house I can shoot a long ways. Most of my rifles are " tuned " or customized to some extent. I am just starting down the long range path and I'm still optically challenged (range finder) so the farthest I have been able to range a rock is 513 yards. The next order of business is to upgrade the range finder.

Humbly submitted!

Bob

 

[cfvickers]

Back to the original subject. If a guy works up his load at 100 yards with his factory rifle, it is shooting 1/2 moa, has es/sd under about 15/10, and it is holding that 1/2 moa (roughly 1 inch) at 200 yards, and you have a good bullet for long range work, Exactly what is it about a custom rifle that will make that bullet fly "truer" than it would from a factory rifle? the bullet does not care how much that rifle costs, or what brand of glass you are using. True, the optics will make it easier to make that long shot, not arguing that. I just caught that part of the first post and with that I disagree. The originator of this thread stated that the difference in the rifle would show up past xx range. In my opinion, quite possibly fact, past said range the rifle no longer has any bearing. If the rifle would do a sufficient job at 100 yards, beyond that it comes down to the bullet so long as it had enough twist to keep it stable. Again, if you want to know before you write the check that the gun will shoot well enough to be accurate at a given range, then custom is the only way to get a guarantee, but if a factory rifle will do it then it will do it at 100 yards or 1000, provided the shooter can do his part. I guess the bottom line point here is, no rifle has ever made a guy a good shot. It will HELP a good shooter to shoot better in many cases, but it does nothing to improve his ability to hit the target/animal at a given range beyond the MPBR. That is all on the shooter. I am speaking of things such as judging wind and drop.

 

[Greyfox]

Sorry about the conversation within a conversation, I will try to curb it following this post.

Greyfox, that is what the third stock screw is for. you can adjust how your rifle sits in the stock by getting it where it needs to be and tightening the front lug down, I get the rear screw moderately tight, then the front again moderately tight then the middle screw down a little tighter so as not to pull the barrel down any further, then the rear all the way, and the front, and last the middle. I don't have a torque driver and I don't really know why, but I just know about where I want it and it works. I get it tight enough that it will not come loose at the very least. I watch how the barrel is sitting in the channel while I am doing this. I am assuming that if you have the newer accustock then it may be different and you may not be able to adjust the depth that the action sits in the stock, in which case you may need to remove some material to get it properly floated.

I torqued the screws down to 45# and found that I needed to only remove less than 1/16" of an inch off the fore end tip. Worked out well.

 

[gcamp54]

I work at a sporting goods store and You wouldn't believe the amount of guys I know that have factory rifles that shoot factory ammo and they all shoot in the exact same hole. Or the guys with there grand dads 22-250 or 223 and they shoot a dime at 1000! I think that I am just unlucky as I haven't found these guns myself, but I am sure they all tell the truth.

Thanks. I needed that, right at this moment.

Gordon