Issue with Norma brass

[cohunt]

So I had been using ppu brass for my 7 mag, I now have 4-5 loads on it and a few of the primer pockets are getting loose so I thought I'd buy some better quality brass

I bought 200pcs of Norma brass, now for the problem....

Once fired, I try to resize them and I get an actual "ridge or lip" just in front of the belt, this is not a bulge, its an actual ridge that prevents chambering and fully closing the bolt.

What dies you ask? : redding FL S bushing dies, hornady fl, or Lee fl all create the lip

What lube you ask? : imperial, hornady 1 shot, and rcbs lube/pad all create the ridge.

Details on sizing using the redding dies: I'm bumping the shoulder .0015", turning the necks to .0125" for consistency, using the propper bushing to produce .001" neck tension, backing off the bushing 1/4 turn so it free floats/centers on the brass, not using the decapping pin or expander ball.

I tried same dies/lube on the PPU brass and it does not have any issues

Conclusion::: it's the brass...how do I fix my problem without new brass?

I contacted Larry with the belted magnum collet die, and he said he's not sure his die would fix my problem as it's for a bulge not a ridge--- I asked if I used his die first, then the fl die if it would fix the problem and he said that's not how it was designed to work, he did say if I buy it and it doesn't work he will give a full refund upon return.

I contacted redding and they just said to send the die back in and they would check it , fix if necassry and return but I don't think the die is at fault

I contacted Norma and they didn't respond

I could just neck size but eventually I'll have to size body/bump shoulder

Pic below shows 5x fired PPU brass resized with redding die on left, 1x fired- un-sized Norma brass on rt, 1x fired Norma brass resized with redding die in middle (see the ridge/lip)

 

[Predator 22]

Could you section the case and see if it is thin at the ridge? May have had excessive headspace and stretched there allowing it to expand during full pressure. My wag.

 

[dok7mm]

To my eyes, it looks like the current die is shaving the brass and dumping it near the belt.

If the brass was fired in a loose chamber, with higher pressures, that area would be a very tight fit for the die to size. I would suggest using the collet die first and then bump and resize the case. I think Larry recommends FL resize first and collet second, but I once had a very loose factory chamber that required using his collet first.

I doubt that it's the Norma brass causing that. Or the die could be under spec. You'll need to measure case diameter above the belt on unfired brass and same place on your fired brass to get an idea of how much expansion you're getting. Hope you figure it out.

 

[can1010]

did you rework your load? norma brass most times will take less powder. you might have over pressured it and swelled the base. did you check your velocity and the case capacity compared to the ppu brass?

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

So I had been using ppu brass for my 7 mag, I now have 4-5 loads on it and a few of the primer pockets are getting loose so I thought I'd buy some better quality brass

I bought 200pcs of Norma brass, now for the problem....

Once fired, I try to resize them and I get an actual "ridge or lip" just in front of the belt, this is not a bulge, its an actual ridge that prevents chambering and fully closing the bolt.

What dies you ask? : redding FL S bushing dies, hornady fl, or Lee fl all create the lip

What lube you ask? : imperial, hornady 1 shot, and rcbs lube/pad all create the ridge.

Details on sizing using the redding dies: I'm bumping the shoulder .0015", turning the necks to .0125" for consistency, using the propper bushing to produce .001" neck tension, backing off the bushing 1/4 turn so it free floats/centers on the brass, not using the decapping pin or expander ball.

I tried same dies/lube on the PPU brass and it does not have any issues

Conclusion::: it's the brass...how do I fix my problem without new brass?

I contacted Larry with the belted magnum collet die, and he said he's not sure his die would fix my problem as it's for a bulge not a ridge--- I asked if I used his die first, then the fl die if it would fix the problem and he said that's not how it was designed to work, he did say if I buy it and it doesn't work he will give a full refund upon return.

I contacted redding and they just said to send the die back in and they would check it , fix if necassry and return but I don't think the die is at fault

I contacted Norma and they didn't respond

I could just neck size but eventually I'll have to size body/bump shoulder

Pic below shows 5x fired PPU brass resized with redding die on left, 1x fired- un-sized Norma brass on rt, 1x fired Norma brass resized with redding die in middle (see the ridge/lip)

does the ridge go all the way around the whole case ? or is it more proud on one side of the round ?

looks like polishing the entry to the die could help

 

[cohunt]

*yes, load was re-worked so same velocity/accuracy was achieved with no pressure signs
*yes it is "plowing/shaving" the brass to the rear
*no, the chamber is not oversize that I can tell-- I measured my 1x fired norma brass and the multi fired PPU brass at the base just above the belt (before resizing) and both brands measure .5125- .5130" -max chamber is .5136 + .002" for saami per the print, so its not tight, but not oversized -- after resizing (with any of the 3 die sets) the PPU brass now measures .5110-.5115, but the Norma brass measures that same dimension before the lip, but on/after the lip it measures .516" just before the belt (over chamber diameter- which is why it wont completely chmber)
*yes the ridge/lip does go all the way around the case equally
*no I have not yet sectioned the brass as I have 5 times reloads on the PPU brass and have had no issues with those when sizing (no tell tale signs of case cracking/splitting near the belt), but I don't think it has excessive headspace issues as my OAL of fired cases to the datum line measures 2.12 to 2.125" and the saami print shows a chamber dim of 2.1253 +.0100" so not out of spec there either--also for reference the 1x fired neck measures .315" and the chamber print shows .316" as max so without a chamber cast, I'm pretty sure my chamber is within specs and not oversize

I don't really want to chamfer the die as all 3 dies (redding, hornady, and lee) do NOT do this to the PPU brass, but all 3 do it to the norma brass (which is why I think its a brass problem)

I did some googlefoo and did find 4 other time people were complaining of getting a ridge on their 7mag Norma brass, but it seems no one ever figured out the problem

at this time, my only thoughts were to try to do a light polish on the die internal (not sure what to use--maybe Flitz? or what about a fine bullet lapping paste?) and maybe try a few other lubes to see if that helped, if not then I may send the die back to redding to check it out, but I really don't think its a die problem and I don't want to damage the die internals

I was possibly thinking of using Larry's collet die to resize the belt area first, then the FL die, but he said he does not recommend using them that way

 

[bigedp51]

I have seen the same problem on pistol and rifles cases when sizing and I'm not sure I would blame the die.

My guess is the case diameter above the belt is larger than your other brands of brass. I think I see a slight bevel on the far right case in your photo, Meaning you can see where the rounded mouth of the die stopped sizing and the flair it left on the case.

I'm just not sure if the case was made larger in diameter or if it increased in diameter when fired.

Below a .308 case sized with a small base Dillon die and softer Federal brass. Remington cases sized in the same die had no problems. So again its larger case diameter and the die pushing the brass and not sizing/squeezing.

You can use a snug fitting shotgun cleaning mop and J&B Bore Paste, automotive rubbing compound, Mothers Mag wheel polish, etc to polish the die. Just chuck the mop in a drill and go to town on the die moving the mop in and out.

Again my gut feeling is the problem cases are a larger diameter just above the belt and your plowing brass.

 

[cohunt]

well, i tried polishing the die and it helped a little-- the ridge was not as prominent but it was still to large of a diameter to chamber correctly --so its still plowing brass (like many have said) --- I'll polish some moor and maybe it will fix my issue--I do think it has to do with the softer norma cases too though as when I size my ppu brass I dont seem to get as much case scuffing as when I size the norma brass --so its probably a combo between softer brass and maybe, not a perfectly polished die

hope polishing fixes my problem

And yes the case on the right does appear to have a bevel just below the belt, thing is- that's a new 1x fired -never sized- piece of Norma brass so that's how they come from Norma

Just for the neck of it I ordered Larry's die- he's pretty proud of it and boasts that he's sold over 6000 of them (not that many in my eyes in the big picture of reloading) but he told me he would offer me a $$ back guarantee if I didn't like it so I took the chance -- he seems kind of spacey in his emails as he tells me 1 minute that his die is not designed to fix the ridge problem, then in his next email he tells me that he is sure the die will fix my problem..oh well, hope it works and between his die, and polishing the redding die I hope to fix my problem

Thanks for the ideas and help again

 

[MagnumManiac]

This is a brass problem, most brands have the belt and about .100"-.150" above it as part of the solid head of the case. Norma has the solid head end right at the belt. If you section a case, it is plainly seen. This is also the major cause of the 'bulge' people see. It is also exacerbated by ANY chambers that are unsupported in this area.

Larry's die MAY help, but I doubt the problem will disappear.

Cheers.

 

[J E Custom]

I would have to section one of my new cases to see where the web inside the case joins the case body. If it is in the same location, it is the case itself. If the web "Is" in this location the case is thin and the die tends to push case body ahead of it and this could cause the ridge.

Just a thought

J E CUSTOM

 

[cohunt]

So you guys are saying the "premium norma" 7 mag brass is faulty due to web design?

Norma makes nosler brass (for the belted magnums) too... (but it may be to slightly different specs) anyone seen this with nosler brass?

 

[RevJim]

If Larry's collet die doesn't fix it for you, I say sell off the rest of the Norma brass and buy you some PPU! Prep it and shoot it. You may even want to try a 20rd box of RWS brass. I used to use new Winchester brass in my 7mm RM, tried Federal but it was too soft, as was Norma. I didn't have one of Larry's dies back in the 70s, ha. If that do it, don't sweat it, Jet that Norma and buy a wad of PPU!

 

[cohunt]

Ok--
Case head dim after firing ppu=.513, norma=.514 (more expansion)

Wall thickness midpoint of case: ppu=.031 norma=.021 (thinner walls)

Wall/web thickness just above belt: ppu=.058 norma=.042 (thinner web)

Empty case wt: ppu= 265g norma= 215g (lighter case)

Water cap: ppu=79g norma= 83g ( more cap)

Neck thickness before turning : ppu= .009-.012"- .003 variance norma= .0125-.015- .0025 variance (norma is thicker neck)

Conclusion, norma is thinner walls/higher case cap/ thicker necks than ppu....ppu does have more case wt variance, within 100 cases, PPU varied by 6 grains, norma varied by 1.5gr
Pic below

 

[cape cove]

Had the exact same problem a few years back with Federal brass for my 270 Weatherby mag.I switched brass and the problem dissapered . I assumed it was a bad(soft) batch of brass.