Is your bullet big enough, moving fast enough??

[skipglo]

You say that but up until recently weren't mild velocity cartridges with high SD bullets what would've been used? Once we got past 1/2 inch round balls, we went to 1/2 inch flat nose, and then when we got to "high power" rifles all the crazy feats of small bores were done with 220 gr 30 cals, 175 gr 7mm, or 160 gr 6.5mm. Right? With monos and bonded rounds the game has changed but I don't find it a stretch to think heavy for caliber is bad when it comes to cup and core.

Definitely not BAD...but not necessary either! All comes down to personal choice.. but I haven't witnessed it yet where it's a game changer on Deer, Moose or Elk or Black Bears, the 200+ gr bullets aren't killing my animals any differently than the 150-165 grs and often times the heavies punch right thru without the shock value.....might be just me!

 

[Idaho Lefty]

foot lbs....wth?

Put a good bullet in a good place with enough speed to open the bullet up reliably and you're golden!

Taking down a elk is far from rockets science

YUP,.. THIS ^^^ and,.. ALWAYS, will BE,.. this ^^^ !
Find, the best Mushrooming / Expanding Bullet that, shoots accurately, in YOUR Rifle and Destroy, the Heart / Lung area,.. AKA "Boiler Room" !
Practice, Field Positions to KNOW your Rifle / Load ( Verify IT ) and PRACTICE some,.. MORE !
It's,.. NOT,.. "Rocket Science" ! Elk and Moose, DON'T Breathe very well, with, a Hole thru, their Lungs !

 

[Idaho Lefty]

My Family, Hunts Elk with,..
6.5 PRC ( 140's ) at around, 3,100 FPS
7mm-08 ( 168's ) at, 2, 765 FPS
.270 WSM ( 140's ) at 3,185 FPS
ALL,.. with,.. BERGER Bullets to, "Scramble",.. the "Boiler Room" !
All 7.5 Pound, " Mtn Rifles" with, NO Muzzle Breaks.
We will "Limit" our shots to,.. 700 Yards, Maximum ( IF, we can get,.. Prone ) AND, the Wind isn't blowing, too hard !

 

[coop2564]

I personally do not use energy. A 44 mag handgun has barely 1000 ft lbs at muzzle, people shoot elk, brown bear and even cape buffalo with them with hardcast with no expansion. My rule of thumb is velocity not energy and penetration, which has done me well. Shoot a monolithic, bonded or Partitioned bullet as far as it will reliably expand (velocity) to at least .4" meplat in diameter and put bullet in lungs, a dead animal will result. My 243 with 80gr GMX will do that out to 500 yds, and if I needed too I would shoot a elk with it. If it was my only choice off to the woods I go. But I would rather grab a 6.5 shooting 124gr copper @ 3150 or 7mm 149gr @ 3400 etc.

 

[rustyshackleford]

Definitely not BAD...but not necessary either! All comes down to personal choice.. but I haven't witnessed it yet where it's a game changer on Deer, Moose or Elk or Black Bears, the 200+ gr bullets aren't killing my animals any differently than the 150-165 grs and often times the heavies punch right thru without the shock value.....might be just me!

I think there is definitely something to it. Go too heavy and too slow and you don't get the disproportionately large wounding effect. Go too light and fast and you risk poor penetration. I definitely think a 165 at 2950 would probably give more shock than a 220 at 2350 but I've heard enough, probably tall tales, that a 180 at 2800 or a 200 at 2700 seems to be guaranteed penetration and guaranteed shock.

 

[Tac-O]

I wouldn't hesitate to elk hunt with my 45-90 lobbing 405gr lead at 1300fps from the muzzle or my 12ga shotgun using 546gr slugs at 1450fps muzzle velocity.

Except I would hesitate to due to where I hunt because they're too pretty to scratch up in the brush haha

 

[CONatureBoy]

Elk season is coming - wonder what we think?
IMO and IME experience, there is a thresh hold for caliber and bullet size when I hunt elk. Many of my friends call me "magnum" because of this philosophy. When it comes to hunting, especially larger game, I run big heavy (195 and larger) bullets at at least 3000 fps mzl vel for elk. I subscribe to no less than 1000 lbs of energy to kill and in the field, things sometimes aren't as perfect as they are on the range or shooting steel - especially at longer ranges when the bullet has a 1 second or longer flight time. Animals move, take steps, turn and have round bones that sometimes deflect smaller bullets upon impact.

I wonder how every one else thinks about this? Yes, I know there have been elk killed with a .243 but is that really what you want to ethically kill an elk with?

SEND IT!

Colorado Parks and Wildlife

Colorado Parks and Wildlife is a nationally recognized leader in conservation, outdoor recreation and wildlife management. The agency manages 42 state parks, all of Colorado's wildlife, more than 300 state wildlife areas and a host of recreational programs. CPW issues hunting and fishing...

cpw.state.co.us

How to Choose a Bullet

Les Bowman, the Cody, Wyoming, outfitter who had a hand in bringing us the 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge, saw a lot of elk shot. He [...]

www.rmef.org

KILLING POWER

Slow, Heavy Bullets Win! - Sporting Classics Daily

From RonSpomerOutdoors.com Heavy bullets win over lighter, faster bullets in our recent survey. I asked if you preferred larger calibers and heavier, slower moving bullets or smaller diameter, faster projectiles for hunting. In other words, do you think big bullets at lower velocities kill more...

sportingclassicsdaily.com

 

[CONatureBoy]

Here's a study on elk:

 

[CONatureBoy]

If you'd like to get a qualitative sense of how different bullets and cartridges produce different wound channels, the article at http://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2001-Vol5No2.pdf#page=27 contains a bunch of 2D pictures of gel-block wound channels from cartridges as small as the 22LR up to several military cartridges (with standard military FMJ bullets). The variables include bullet shape, composition, type (e.g. FMJ), and speed. The differences in the wound channels can be summarized as (1) depth of penetration prior to expansion, (2) length of the (enlarged) "temporary cavity," (3) maximum diameter of the temporary cavity, and (4) depth of penetration after the temporary cavity.

In my experience it's useful to think about bullet performance in terms of this "wound-channel profile." Some bullets (e.g. FMJs) penetrate gel for a long time before expanding, which indicates they'll reliably punch through bone but may not create a large-diameter temporary cavity. Some bullets hardly penetrate at all before producing a huge temporary cavity. There are now many YouTube videos similar to , which shows the result of shooting a 7mm 180-grain Berger hunting VLD through deer hide and a deer shoulder bone before entering 20% gel block and penetrating two or three inches of the gel block before starting to create the temporary cavity. I encourage those of you with a serious, dispassionate interest in the subject to watch some gel-block-test videos on YouTube. There's a lot of good (admittedly anecdotal) information in those videos.

 

[HARPERC]

It absolutely staggers my mind at how often this question is asked! And even more mind boggling that the concept of HEAVY, NO..HEAVIER...MAYBE HEAVIEST...has garnered so much attention today...to kill game! There shouldn't be an Indigenous person or earliest settler to have ever survived...and albeit...None of us here today if this were true!

No seasons, no limits, better game density etc. Starvation and infant mortality very high.

Question becomes to me recovery. Back before the net, IDFG had a small study of recovered elk. Those collared, and subsequently recovered by the department (If memory serves) Archery 1 elk per 5 or 6 was actually recovered by the hunter. Firearms 1 per very 4 or 5.

It's not just a study of ballistics (rocket science) but also anatomy and physiology. Substituting those studies for hyperbole leads to those pitiful recovery rates.

 

[CONatureBoy]

There are also now many YouTube "kill shot" videos. Some of them are slow motion, which lets you see clearly bullet path through the atmosphere (which suggests the terminal, post-impact path) and the point of impact. In many cases you can also see the quarry run or drop. In some cases the video indicates the caliber and bullet weight or type. Watching these videos lets you draw your own conclusions about how bullets of different types and weights perform while hitting game animals of different types and sizes at different points of impact. Again, these videos are far from a random sample or systematic study, but they still contain a lot of good qualitative information about subjects such as bullet performance.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

@ CONatureBoy,..
AGREE with this, as the Barbour Creek Guys seem to be, very knowledgeable / credible and thorough,.. on their, Bullet Testing !
And there are some, "good" Hunting Kill shots, on YouTube, also,..
And some, Un-ethical, stupid,.. KRAP !
We all, gotta pay attention and,.. Learn to, "read between, the Lines" !

 

[TxHeartShot]

Working at the range recently and everyone is bringing out their rifles for the "once a year" sighting in and throwing a few downrange...then they think they're good to go. Heavier and faster are causing less practice IMO and most shooters can't handle sustained repeated recoil to get very proficient. So far one guy shot his 338 RUM once, said good and sacked it up. Pretty sure he didn't hit paper at 100 yds and his flinch was visible from 20 feet away.

We have a policy before you can shoot at the 600 or 1000 yard bench you have to prove yourself at the 300 yard bench. Only about 1 in 8 of these sharpshooters make it and the rest blame the gun/scope, wind, mirage, anything but their own skill most of the time.

Oh well, hunting season is upon us and I'll be guiding some knuckleheads like every year, but there will be a few, especially kids, who are there for the love of hunting and shooting and really want to be excellent.

 

[Tac-O]

That is partially why I don't own a magnum... I couldn't afford to shoot it enough to be proficient with it