Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by *WyoWhisper*, Feb 25, 2004.

  1. *WyoWhisper*

    *WyoWhisper* Guest

    Been thinking... actually churning my guts...

    I actually hate to be the one to bring this up because it was my groups I posted... I actually wish it were someone elses groups... I'm sure at some point this happened to someone else and I should have mentioned it then...

    I'm deperately trying to keep from starting a pissing match but it affects the whole board and in fact has chased some people from it. and turned a bunch of others off.. But I am the kinda guy to speak my mind and say what has to be said... that's just me... but hey we all can't be politically correct...

    when guys post groups..

    2 shots
    3 shots
    5 shots
    10 shots

    which is better? Which proves more? Which means you're a good shot or the rifle is just that good? Which proves both?

    Why don't 3 or 5 shot groups get respect?

    Why do 10 shots = a better group? Does it prove that that 10 shot rifle is better? Or does it prove the shooter is better? Really ??

    How many guys can take their LR hunting rifle. ( after all this is the LR hunting board ) and put 1 shot within inches of their point of aim without a sighter? Beyond 500 yards...? Now be honest...

    BR shooters how many sighters do you fire before you start shooting your groups? 2,3,4 10 , 15 ?? I know for a fact most of you shoot SEVERAL! How many have hit your point of aim within inches the first or second round? Again, be honest.

    Just questions I would like to have answered... I also know more here would like to hear it too.. but I respect their not wanting to make waves.. me I'm just direct I guess..

    If you flame me.. so be it...
    I don't in any way mean any disrespect.. just some trends I have noticed over the past few months...That not only affected me.. but more than you realize...

    give credit where credit is due or establish criteria for rifle shooter perfromance...

    As I mentioned... my get-together is..

    the truth, demistify and make you honest! Or just show up and share and learn.. that's waht I'm gonna do!
     
  2. milanuk

    milanuk Well-Known Member

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    That's why one of our local LR/Tactical (300/600yds) matches has stages for 'cold bore zero' at the start of the match. You'd be surprised how much that humbles the guys (myself included) who normally shoot good groups.

    That being said, most of my LR hunting is varmints, so being able to *consistently* put round after round into the same general vincinity is arguably more important than the first shot being spot on. Cold bore zero is nice, but 10 shot groups are more indicative of what I expect out of my guns, w/ me behind the trigger. To each their own.

    YMMV,

    Monte
     
  3. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    I always like to see more shots in a little hole, but the only time 10 shots matter is in 1K BR and point blank BR, and varmint hunting. For a tactical rig, it is the first three that matter the most, maybe the first 5. THere is no reason to run 10 shots or more for group unless it is a varmint gun or a BR gun--why waste the barrel life?

    with a heavy barreled gun i like 5 shots, sporter i like 3.

    Ric you have a nice 3 shot group--what also matters is consistancy. If you like 3 instead of 5 then shoot several 3 shot groups and post them--i bet that gun is consistant as well.

    you are concerned with the consistancy of the first few shots--that is what matters to you (and most others in most situations) who cares where shots 8-17 go (i usu shoot 7 siters in 1k comp) you dont, and i dont either with my 308--now with my BR gun, that is all that matters--There i dont care much where my CBS goes.

    You are not trying to compete with a 1k br gun, or you would be shooting at 1K

    those who like the 10 shot groups are not trying to compete with your tactical rig, so they dont shoot 3 or 5 shot groups at 770yds.

    You are posting because you are happy with your groups--keep posting. When i get a chance to shoot my 308 some more, maybe i will have a few pics to post.

    different disciplines need different requirements--I dont look down on your 3 shot 4.5" group at 770 just because i fired a 4" 5 shot group at 1022 (practice at williamsport) with my old 30 goodling. they are meant for different things. Even then i didnt shoot 10 shots, but i was just testing the load at match temp, no need for 5 more.


    BTW was your CBS included in that group??

    Keep posting pics...I will [​IMG]--dont let attitude collision keep you from posting [​IMG]

    Hopefully my new 6.5 (when its together) will give me some targets to post [​IMG]

    FWIW,
    JB
     
  4. Brian Rybicky

    Brian Rybicky Well-Known Member

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    Ric,

    Is say that 10 shots is the best way to see you can shoot as the wind is usally changes a few times before you get all those rounds off, 3 and 5 shot groups is to test the rifle, when your rifle shoots good groups with 3 it usally throws good groups with 5, as for hittin after 500 yards, the first time i ever shot that range, I put three shots in to a 4" bull at 500 yards, then i started thinkin about the wind and got all #%$*ed up and havent hit the bull on a cold shot since then.
    Good shootin,
    Brian

    [ 02-25-2004: Message edited by: Brian Rybicky ]
     
  5. John Burns

    John Burns Well-Known Member

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    This will be my first post here in a long time but it is a topic I really enjoy discussing.

    First let me say this is only in the context of hunting. Benchrest games have rules that dictate how many shot per group so if you are interested in those games you probably know exactly how many shots per group to use to evaluate your system (rifle, optic, ammo, and shooter). For example if your game requires 10 shot groups you would be fooling your self to only shoot 3 shot groups.

    Second I am thinking only of a way to evaluate my particular system and determine how good or bad I think it is functioning. I am assuming this is what we are discussing here is how to evaluate our own system (rifle, ammo, optic, and shooter).

    In this context I don’t like to think in terms of groups but in terms of hitting or missing a target of some predetermined size at a predetermined range. Example would be a 5” circle at 500yds.

    I figure if my system can hit a 2” spot 10 times in a row at 200 yds this is very good performance. My current barrel on my 22-243 did this when I tested it right after installation. The target was a 2” target spot and all 10 shots were in the orange. The “group” was right at 1.5”.

    If I had been shooting 3 shot groups I had three shots in a row that were slightly under 0.250”. If this was all I was doing I might have gotten a skewed belief that my system was capable of hitting a quarter inch target at 200yds every time when in fact it is not.

    With a hunting rifle what I want to know is whether or not I can hit a target of a certain size at a certain range with any degree of reliability. To often I have seen guys at the range that shoot a really small group and then convinced themselves that this performance was the standard they should expect from their system. The best three shot group from a system is not any predictor of future performance.

    Groups are useful in the initial testing of a system because they remove the influence of zero but when the finale result is a system for hunting we have to include our zero because more shots are missed at long range because of an improper zero than any from an inaccurate rifle.

    I believe one 10 shot group is more honest than 4 three shot groups or 2 five shot groups. If you are worried about barrel heat just use the same amount of time on your 10 shot no matter how you combine them.
     
  6. orwapitihunter

    orwapitihunter Well-Known Member

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    Ric,

    I have seen two recent posts of groups within the last few days. Both of them had somewhat negative posts directed at them. It doesn't suprise me that more people don't post groups.

    I do know that a three shot group will never get smaller by firing 7 more to go with it. So what do these guys want? You related the circumstances related to that group and to me it is what it is. Hunting is my thing. So to me a first shot kill is far more valuable than a group. With that said.

    NICE GROUPS RIC!!!
     
  7. MachV

    MachV Well-Known Member

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    I tend to give maltiple groups on the same page more respect irregardless of # of shots fired.Case in point I had a VLE Ruger in 308 that printed one sweet 5 shot group.The problem was it averaged over an inch @ 100.
    This target does not have spectacular groups but is uniform enough to take to a prairie dog town and consistant wack dogs to 300 yards.The shots where taken off the bipods on the hood of the truck,the clip(19 rounds) was MTed in short order at random dots
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I shoot 3 or 5 shot groups with my hunting rifle. If I am shooting more than one group, at the same distence, with the same load I put 2 targets, one on top of the other and than replace only the top target between groups. Than if I get a very good 3 shot group I can keep it for braging but have the bottem target with many (I have one with 40 holes) shots so I know what my gun and I are realy doing.
     
  9. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Ric,
    Is it the wind, MV ES, or other problems with a rifles ability to hold consistant POI?
    I think this really goes to the heart of the matter. If you shoot 10 shots at seperate targets, and POI is within .5 MOA of POA on all of them, verses a rifle that shoots a 1 MOA group on one target at the same POA, which is more important here?

    Aplication possibly?
    If you're shooting at 500 yards and POI is switching all over the bull at 2 or 3 MOA in both planes, is it wind, a problem with the load or rifle? How well it consistantly groups up closer will help you decide this.

    1,2,3,5 or 10 shots? Makes no difference really, so long as you know how consistant the load is, the more you shoot it, the more you'll know.

    If barrel fouling, heat build up between groups affect the consistancy of the groups, and I can manage this, I may have a consistant load.

    If that means shooting a couple foulers then a 3 shot group each session, then cleaning again, that would suck, but if it was consistant day after day, after day, add 'em up and and you've effectively shot that number of rounds for group IMO.

    Statistics are statistics though, and number of shots does factor in. Apples to apples comparison is truely the only way to compare rifles abilities. If one wants to compare their rifles ability to my 3 shot groups, shoot 3 shot groups in your rifle a few times and compare 'em then. To me, the BR guys have plenty of rifles to compare theirs to, to determine their 10 shot grouping ability. If I want to see how mine stacks up, I can shoot 3, 5 or 10 and see.

    I like how Michael often shoots his 308 though. 1 shot at each range on a paper plate. If you shoot 1 shot with your bore in the same condition you'll be hunting with it in, and over time you see what consistancy it produces (vertical mainly), you'll be learning what it will really be capable of, as well as what range you can keep them as near your POA as you need to for the particular kill zone size your zeroing in on.

    To me, my first shot within a fraction of 1 MOA from POA at various ranges is what I'm after. The number of times I can repeat it might be tested at different ranges, or the same. What's important is, whether or not you find it repeatable and how far POI is from POA measured in MOA on a consistant basis. This gives me an honest number I can use, and count on in the field.

    If I shoot 20 rounds and want to further know the consistantcy of a load, I think my time is better spend shooting at 10-20 different ranges with those shots than just one. If I can hold 1 MOA vertical, and 1.5 MOA horizontal, session after session, that's the best I can do at that point. But, I will have learned much more along with it by shooting at various ranges than just setting at 100, or 300 yards testing the load out.

    I am quite confident that if I were to shoot up against Michael at various ranges, me with my best load, and Michael with a medioker load, he would out shoot me every damn time, without difficulty.

    I do a lot of practicing at a set range for groups, but varying the range enough to feel confident to hit OK at nearly all I shoot at. Michael on the other hand shoots at varying ranges on almost a religious basis, so is much better prepared in a moments notice.

    One or two shots is all I'm likely to ever shoot at one animal, and if that don't work, I'd better rethink why I tried to at that range. Matching POI with POA is not only a measure of the rig's capability, but the shooter and his abilities too, which is often much more important at LR.

    Ric,
    Some of these guys look at your groups and wonder what it would look like with 5 or 10 shots, most of which never post pix of their targets, but sit back and be critical. You know how well you rig shoots, and I think it shoots great too BTW, so don't let these guys get you down, and keep posting your pix!
     
  10. Boyd Heaton

    Boyd Heaton Well-Known Member

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    Here is a group [​IMG] ........
     
  11. MAX

    MAX Well-Known Member

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    I think JB1000BR and Brent pretty much cover it all. JMO, Target work and BG hunting are NOT the same thing. Accuracy vs. consistancy. Never fired a 10 shot string for a model 94, but I have a #1 that put 22 shots into .77" one day. I called that a good load. Statistics don't lie, but they're not always pertinent.

    Boyd, when you gonna work up a "good" load for that beasty? [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. Dan McCarty

    Dan McCarty Member

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    Ric, hopefully this will help. Most of us have read statements like very good factory rifle shoots .5" MOA(or custom rifle shoots .1). This statement suggests that the person,rifle,caliber and all factors impacting accuracy are such that each and every time this rifle is shot the same result happens, a .5" group.

    The purpose of these type statements is to indicate rifle accuracy each and every time we shoot over a long period of time and with conditions remaining the same. We know that condition may not remain the same over a relatively short period of time when we are shooting and certainly, they do not over longer periods of time.

    Many folks do a lot of things to try and get tiny groups over long periods but it is not possible to control for every factor impacting accuracy. Thus, when groups are fired, there size will differ. If we shoot three groups of .25, .5 and .75, then the average is .5 (adding and dividing by three). This average is correct; to pick one group and say a rifle shoots .25 (or .75) does not represent reality. However, this is a bad example because more groups are needed to get a true estimate of accuracy.

    A realistic accuracy of a rifle is estimated shooting many, many groups, say at least twenty-nine and taking the average. Or as some have suggested each time you shoot place a clean target over the "dirty" target you shot yesterday (or last week). Shoot many times, on different days, with a clean target over the same dirty target. Then measure the group on the dirty target. Or, measure each group on the clean targets, add them and divide by the number of groups and you will get a measure close to the group size of the dirty target. Either approach will give a realistic measure of the accuracy of your rifle.

    Also, we would like to have the least spread (or variance or standard deviation)between the smallest and largest groups. To do this, shooters do all kinds of things, custom work, custom guns, neck size, change AOL, etc. If we could remove all the factors impacting group size, the one-hole group happens each and every time we shoot.

    Finally, what about the number of shots in each group, some say three, some say five, others more. The number of shot fired in each standard group does not matter. What counts is the number of groups used to compute the average, the larger, the better.

    Hope all of this makes sense and that I have not just muddy the water. If I have forgotten or wrong in this disccusion, I hope someone corrects me.

    Dan
     
  13. milanuk

    milanuk Well-Known Member

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    Boyd, ya need to work on that a bit... you completely missed the dot! [​IMG]

    Nice group though! [​IMG]
     
  14. baldeagle713

    baldeagle713 Well-Known Member

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    *WyoWhisper*
    I do believe my Factory Coyote in 270 WSM will keep up with that gun of yours at 500 yrds. I have 1000 yrd targets where 3 shots are with in 4 inches of each other. I'd just have to go down stairs and sort threw my Targets.
    I'm back I can take a pic of a 3 shot group in 3.6 inches AT 1000 yrds with my 270 WSM Factory rifle. Now the 10 shot group on that target Whelll!!!!
    [​IMG] Lets just say I like my RODGER built FLAT Bottom gun better for 1000 yrd shootin. [​IMG]
    Just to throw in alittle EGO!
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [ 02-25-2004: Message edited by: baldeagle713 ]