Is Action Blue Printing Worth It

Chamberman

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The bulk of really excellent carbon fiber is made in Japan e.g. Toray - some is made in U.S. for mil contracts, China, Taiwan, and Europe. No idea where Weatherby gets their materials but my sense is, it is not US made to meet a 2500 price point.

Most excellent 416r barrel steel is made in the US - at least it is for aftermarket barrels so again, no idea where WBY gets theres.

IF anyone is up on this data, please share!!
To be clear the typical barrels used on Weatherby's- non Carbon Fiber are Criterion barrels of Germantown, WI.

BSF is the manufacturer of their Carbon Fiber/ steel barrel's, which are "sleeved" with carbon fiber and placed under tension with a nut at the muzzle.

 

pedwards

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Shooting the rifle first and then sending it back will add shipping costs. So roughly what 75-90 bucks? This is why I said best to call Weatherby, or any manufacturer for clarity. Anyone on a web forum can make a bunch of claims. I've worked in the firearms industry and learn it's best to get the information straight from the horses mouth. Then see if the customer reviews matches the manufacturer's st
Shooting the rifle first and then sending it back will add shipping costs. So roughly what 75-90 bucks? This is why I said best to call Weatherby, or any manufacturer for clarity. Anyone on a web forum can make a bunch of claims. I've worked in the firearms industry and learn it's best to get the information straight from the horses mouth. Then see if the customer reviews matches the manufacturer's statements.
Thanks for the information. I'll give Weatherby a call and see what they have to say.
 

Coyote Shadow Tracker

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I'm more than happy to consider another manufacturer. Any suggestions for a $2500 rifle with a 0.5 MOA guarantee?
We have been very lucky with one exception on a Winchester with a defective barrel. All the factory rifles shot <0.5MOA, with a little tuning up (lapping, trigger) plus reloading ammo to the rifle helps a lot. Remington, Winchester, Kimber, Sako. Had several exceptional Cooper rifles that shot in the same hole. Cooper used to proof their rifles at 47 yrds and send a target/data card with every rifle.
Depends on how soon you need a rifle and what is in stock.
 

GunHawk

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Most people would agree that when someone makes a bold statement that something is better than something else, interested people will want to know why and how they can prove that is true. I am a scientist, data and math supports fact - no data, no math, no fact.
Yup, peace out
If we were discussing science in a scientific forum then I would expect him to provide a citation(s), or at least a "personal communication". However, on this forum I wouldn't expect that. There is nothing I have seen on this forum that could qualify as valid science, given the sample sizes and testing methods... (I'm going to get another yawn from someone).
I suspected you were a scientist base on the fact that you used "farther" rather than "further".
--I think I just became a thread hijacker, sorry.
 

JMGamesniper19

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To be clear the typical barrels used on Weatherby's- non Carbon Fiber are Criterion barrels of Germantown, WI.

BSF is the manufacturer of their Carbon Fiber/ steel barrel's, which are "sleeved" with carbon fiber and placed under tension with a nut at the muzzle.

Appreciate that information. But that introduces another governing factor. Multiple manufacturers doing multiple steps in various places with various parts. Tough to create an highly iterative repeatable and controlled process
 

pedwards

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"Hand honing, truing receiver and bolt face, and lapping of lug to enhance accuracy of rifle" is what they quote. So I would guess improved accuracy to what sp6x6 noted. How much is anyone's guess. A phone call could clear it up to some degree. I would note this service for a 300 WBY Mag would be on 9 lugs, so I would guess it takes more time and detail. Also would the honing of the action smooth up the bolt? Again a quick call would clear up that question. All the answer they provide would lead you to whether or not it's worth it. Now if it were me and this was going to be a special rifle in my collection I'd say yeah it's worth it. If it was going to be my general purpose hunter/ truck gun I'd wouldn't be inclined to spend the money.
It definitely will be a special gun in my collection, even though my collection will only consist of 2 rifles once I buy this one, :) . I'm not really a gun collector (at this point in my life). I buy them for a specific task. This one being my elk and moose rifle.
 

JMGamesniper19

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If we were discussing science in a scientific forum then I would expect him to provide a citation(s), or at least a "personal communication". However, on this forum I wouldn't expect that. There is nothing I have seen on this forum that could qualify as valid science, given the sample sizes and testing methods... (I'm going to get another yawn from someone).
I suspected you were a scientist base on the fact that you used "farther" rather than "further".
--I think I just became a thread hijacker, sorry.
We are discussing science. Barrel building, gun making, ballistics, and everything in this forum is derived from math and science.
Opinions are like *ssholes, we all have them, including me!

He made a statement - Wby barrels are better than aftermarket barrels. Opinion.
I asked for data to support it. Not an unrealistic ask.
OMG I made a grammar error - guess Ill send my PhD back! LMAO

Yes, you did become a hijacker. I am not an expert on BSF barrels but if they are wrapping them in a "tin foil" like process and the carbon is not touching the barrel completely, that introduces heat expansion variations that may be actually beneficial, but it could also be detrimental too. I don't have data to support either thought so cant say and I haven't seen any from BSF. Testing is very expensive. What I do know is that for hunting barrels, in normal hunting and shooting conditions, it is likely less important that comp or military barrels that experience variations in heat and are stressed to their limits through high rates of fire most of us will never experience with our personal rifles.

Lets use some science. In order to explain it fully I would have to write a 6 page response so not gonna happen, know I am speaking from personal carbon barrel building experience gained in working and developing carbon barrels with one of the most prominent carbon barrel makers in the U.S. I am not able to legally share the actual data but I can share general information and outcomes.
  • We have specific data showing heat transfer with both steel and carbon including bore temperature variations, POI shift under high temp strings of fire, thermal expansion rates, cold barrel performance, and barrel life with carbon -v- steel. That data was then reviewed by Gov agencies and tested within their requirements. The data was then confirmed and supported through their shooters in real world environments.
  • Carbon fiber is 5x lighter and 2x stronger than steel - carbon has low heat conduction where steel has high heat conduction and due to steel isotropic form, it is difficult to make direct comparisons to each - which we often do in rifles. The ratio of metal in the steel liner, the amount of carbon, the amount of resin, and build of the entire piece is important to ensure that all materials work together and enhance each others ability to perform. Incorrect ratios = negative performance.
  • Carbon barrels are a wrap around the outside of a steel liner. Wraps can vary, process can vary, the thickness of the steel barrel liner can vary, type of carbon used can vary - there are about 50 different types of carbon that can be used in a barrel.
  • Carbon barrels create a stiffer and more repeatable barrel signature through the firing process, carbon doesn't wear out like steel and with the right build process, will move heat away from the center of the barrel faster than a steel barrel of the same contour - less "barrel whip" over time - a sendero carbon barrel is going to be stiffer than a #4 steel barrel and have less barrel whip
  • All Carbon barrels are glued together and also to the steel barrel liner. The "glue" or resin can come from 30 different places and can have varying stiffness and heat resistant properties - hence varied barrel processes and build types - ability to control and move heat
  • Carbon barrels theoretically have less POI shift than a steel barrel under higher heat conditions, due to many of the properties I outlined above
  • POI shift is a variable action that can only be controlled in a jig, unless you are seeing something wild. Most people who think they see POI shift find out its not the rifle barrel in most cases, unless you are shooting a #2 contour in high rates of fire and then yeah, you are going to see significant POI shift. Lots of variable. Can carbon barrels POI shift yes and in the early days of building, say anything before about 2014, they did. Now, its pretty rare unless you are shooting a lot and at a high rate of speed.
  • PRS shooters use both carbon and steel barrels. There is no rhyme or reason who shoots what frankly, its about what is accurate and repeatable (its also about if they are sponsored or buying the barrel yourself) so if they aren't worried too much about day to day POI, should you be?
So, to talk about any barrel being better or more accurate is a misnomer. A 1/2 MOA barrel is a 1/2 MOA barrel. The barrel manufacturing process and how it moves heat compared to the stiffness of the barrel; also how the resin or overall stiffness of the barrel remains constant due to heat. We are talking about constant heat above 200 degrees or so . The more heat, the more POI Shift in basic terms, up to a point that the barrel begins to melt. The carbon doesn't melt, the resin holding it together begins to melt. Every single barrel manufacturer is chasing the holy grail of making a carbon barrel that will survive the heat from a crew served automatic weapon for the military. No one is there yet.

To say that barrel from maker A shifts more or less than a barrel from maker B is a one time personal experience that has too many variables to say that every single barrel from either maker is susceptible to POI shift more or less. Just like steel, it is an individual barrel issue.
I personally have carbon barrels from multiple makers and all of them shoot. That said, I have also had a bad barrel from one of them, it was too tight and created too much pressure and I had to return it.

IMO and IME, any barrel will shoot accurately in the right conditions, with the right load, and with the right shooter behind it. Steel, carbon, whatever. That same barrel might not shoot in the wrong conditions with the wrong load and the wrong person behind it. So if you have the money and need to save the weight, get a carbon barrel. If you are going to expect less POI shift under high rates of continual fire at high heat, get a carbon barrel. If you are going to go to the range and shoot 25 rounds in an hour and then take that rifle hunting, and shoot maybe 2 times more, you may not need a carbon barrel.
 
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xsn10s

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It definitely will be a special gun in my collection, even though my collection will only consist of 2 rifles once I buy this one, :) . I'm not really a gun collector (at this point in my life). I buy them for a specific task. This one being my elk and moose rifle.
The beauty of not having a ton of firearms is you can buy quality accesesories like scopes, binos, rangefinders ete. Smart man!
 

Chamberman

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We are discussing science. Barrel building, gun making, ballistics, and everything in this forum is derived from math and science.
Opinions are like *ssholes, we all have them, including me! My opinion is no better or worse than his.

He made a statement - Wby barrels are better than aftermarket barrels. Opinion.
I asked for data to support it. Not an unrealistic ask.
OMG I made a grammar error - guess Ill send my PhD back! LMAO

Yes, you did become a hijacker - appreciate the admittance.

In order to explain it fully I would have to write a 6 page response so not gonna happen, know I am speaking from personal carbon barrel building experience gained in working with one of the most prominent carbon barrel makers in the U.S..
  • We have specific data showing heat transfer, POI shift under high temp strings of fire, thermal expansion rates, cold barrel performance, and barrel life.
  • That data was then reviewed by Gov agencies and tested within their requirements. The data was confirmed and supported through that testing
  • The barrels, the resin, the carbon, and the entire process were manufactured, assembled, and tested in one house and through one company
  • Carbon fiber is 5x lighter and 2x stronger than steel
  • Carbon barrels are a wrap around the outside of a steel liner. Wraps can vary, process can vary, the thickness of the steel barrel liner can vary, type of carbon used can vary - there are about 50 different types of carbon that can be used in a barrel.
  • Carbon barrels create a stiffer and more repeatable barrel signature through the firing process, carbon doesn't wear out like steel and with the right build process, will move heat away from the center of the barrel faster than a steel barrel of the same contour - less "barrel whip" over time - a sendero carbon barrel is going to be stiffer than a #4 steel barrel and have less barrel whip
  • All Carbon barrels are glued together and also to the steel barrel liner. The "glue" or resin can come from 30 different places and can have varying stiffness and heat resistant properties - hence varied barrel processes and build types - ability to control and move heat
  • Carbon barrels theoretically have less POI shift than a steel barrel under higher heat conditions, due to many of the properties I outlined above
  • POI shift is a variable action that can only be controlled in a jig, unless you are seeing something wild. Most people who think they see POI shift find out its not the rifle barrel in most cases, unless you are shooting a #2 contour in high rates of fire and then yeah, you are going to see significant POI shift. Lots of variable. Can carbon barrels POI shift yes and in the early days of building, say anything before about 2014, they did. Now, its pretty rare unless you are shooting a lot and at a high rate of speed.
  • PRS shooters use both carbon and steel barrels. There is no rhyme or reason who shoots what frankly, its about what is accurate and repeatable (its also about if they are sponsored or buying the barrel yourself) so if they aren't worried too much about day to day POI, should you be?
So, to talk about any barrel being better or more accurate is a misnomer. A 1/2 MOA barrel is a 1/2 MOA barrel. The barrel manufacturing process and how it moves heat compared to the stiffness of the barrel; also how the resin or overall stiffness of the barrel remains constant due to heat. We are talking about constant heat above 200 degrees or so . The more heat, the more POI Shift in basic terms, up to a point that the barrel begins to melt. The carbon doesn't melt, the resin holding it together begins to melt. Every single barrel manufacturer is chasing the holy grail of making a carbon barrel that will survive the heat from a crew served automatic weapon for the military. No one is there yet.

To say that barrel from maker A shifts more or less than a barrel from maker B is a one time personal experience that has too many variables to say that every single barrel from either maker is susceptible to POI shift more or less. Just like steel, it is an individual barrel issue.
I personally have carbon barrels from multiple makers and all of them shoot. That said, I have also had a bad barrel from one of them, it was too tight and created too much pressure and I had to return it.

IMO and IME, any barrel will shoot accurately in the right conditions, with the right load, and with the right shooter behind it. Steel, carbon, whatever. That same barrel might not shoot in the wrong conditions with the wrong load and the wrong person behind it. So if you have the money and need to save the weight, get a carbon barrel. If you are going to expect less POI shift under high rates of continual fire at high heat, get a carbon barrel. If you are going to go to the range and shoot 25 rounds in an hour and then take that rifle hunting, and shoot maybe 2 times more, you may not need a carbon barrel.
Great input!!
 

Dr. Vette

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FYI, I visited Weatherby last week for my yearly visit when out in WY hunting antelope.

In discussion with them, currently their in-house record for smallest group is held by one of their carbon fiber-barreled rifles, less than 0.1 inch at 100 yards.
Most of their Mark V rifles shoot under 0.5 inches when tested.

I'm trying to decide whether to have them rebarrel one of my 300 Wby rifles with the carbon barrel, or whether to just buy a Carbonmark. I could go with an Accumark barrel, but if the CF one has a better accuracy potential, why not?
Personally I think that the original poster is making the right choice in rifles.

If @pedwards happens to call Weatherby and find out what actually occurs with the blueprinting vs a normal build, I'd love to know.
 

Chamberman

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Caldwell, Idaho
FYI, I visited Weatherby last week for my yearly visit when out in WY hunting antelope.

In discussion with them, currently their in-house record for smallest group is held by one of their carbon fiber-barreled rifles, less than 0.1 inch at 100 yards.
Most of their Mark V rifles shoot under 0.5 inches when tested.

I'm trying to decide whether to have them rebarrel one of my 300 Wby rifles with the carbon barrel, or whether to just buy a Carbonmark. I could go with an Accumark barrel, but if the CF one has a better accuracy potential, why not?
Personally I think that the original poster is making the right choice in rifles.

If @pedwards happens to call Weatherby and find out what actually occurs with the blueprinting vs a normal build, I'd love to know.

The rifles I have from Wyoming all shoot 1/2" or better, although none of them are Carbon Fiber.
My 300 WBY Weathermark LT, 30-378 WBY Accumark, and 338 Lapua Accumark Elite all drive tacks!!
 

436

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Hey Everyone,

I’m about to order a Weatherby Carbonmark in 300 Wby. and I noticed action blueprinting as an option in their custom shop. This will be my “Out West” rifle, strictly used for hunting. Right now, I am comfortable taking shots up to 500 yards at game. I know what action blueprinting is, but everything I read associates it with target rifles, or something that needs to be done after changing barrels. Is it worth the $250 to have Weatherby blueprint the action? Thanks in advance.
Boy, that is a question with a lot of variables in it, how do you know it won't shoot right out of the box? you don't. I personally have had no accuracy problems with Wby's out of the box over the many years I've bought and used Wby's. But that's just me. Good Luck... Cheers.
 
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